Genetics , Breeding and Cross Breeding

[jwhtan]

We've always been talking about crossbreeding of the different strains and many of us just put two and two together and arrive at some individual conclusions.

I thought it may help if I put together my understanding on breeding and perhaps others who have in depth studies can chip in and please, do correct me if I'm wrong.

What happens when u crossbreed ?

In the first parental cross, the F1 will always see only one of the two parental phenotypes in this generation. That is assuming u r able to pair different breeds together in arowanas, if u breed a Red with a XBack, you get in this first generation an aro that looks either like the Red or the XBack and not a combination of both. Or that if you breed a RTG with a XBack, you will get an aro tat looks like an RTG or a XBack and not one that is a combination.

However this F1 generation holds the all most important genetic composition of both parents tat is required to produce both parental phenotypes of the following generation. This F2 generation always produced a 3:1 ratio where the dominant trait is present 3 times as often as the recessive trait.

In order to henceforth produce a particular strain which breeds true, this pure line programme would then have to be picked from the F2 generation tat produces the dominant traits for future breeding.

Looking at this complicated process of a genetic programme and knowing the difficulties and the time required in a programme like this, do u still think the farmers will put rtgs and xbacks for a breeding programme to produce the so called hiback rtgs ???

[Aroboy II]

To the local breeding farm, as long as their breeding program make profits I think they will!;) IMHO.

[LostBoI]

actally i fully agree with ur point...
won't it be more profitable to breed xback instead of a HBRTG?
since the time taken and resources involved are the same.

why would they wanna do the xback and RTG instead...

hmmm

[Mewmender]

To the local breeding farm, as long as their breeding program make profits I think they will!;) IMHO.
But issit profitable to commission XBs into this process while they could actually have those XBs producing more XBs which are much more profitable?

Also, not to forget the difference in pricing of these "HBRTGs" and normal RTGs nowadays do not differ much

[jwhtan]

wat I'm saying is tat if u put a xback and a rtg to breed, u dun necessarily get a hbrtg

in this first generation if they breed, wat happens is tat in genetic theory this generation (we call F1) can look either like a xback or a rtg ...

4th level + 6th level does not necessarily add up to 5th level for the offsprings

[shiokmc]

YALOR..... ultimately offspring will end up as RTG or XB whichever parent's Gene is stronger lor

[Aroboy II]

But issit profitable to commission XBs into this process while they could actually have those XBs producing more XBs which are much more profitable?

Also, not to forget the difference in pricing of these "HBRTGs" and normal RTGs nowadays do not differ much

If like that wont the farm choose the "lousy" XB and breed with RTG lor!:p

[kimkuan]

How about if its done with F2/F3 offsprings Xbreed XB/RTG instead of F1 offsprings?
Does your point of view includes farms in overseas like Indo??

[Mewmender]

If like that wont the farm choose the "lousy" XB and breed with RTG lor!:p
nah, its much more commericially viable for them to sell them off at cheaper price imo . No pt keeping them till maturity juz for such a "experiment" .
Its also not commericially viable to use up ponds and tanks which could be use for futher production of their current breeds for up to 2-3 years to keep those "lousy" xb for breeding.

Also not to mention a farm has to produce more thn 1 batch of such hybrids (from different parents) due to the fact that when the inbreeding has reach 60 to 70 %, the fertilitybecomes very low because of the inbreeding depression, that further inbreeding has been impossible..... which basically means at least a few different lines of such hybrids have to be produce to mantain production of such fishes ....

[jwhtan]

How about if its done with F2/F3 offsprings Xbreed XB/RTG instead of F1 offsprings?
Does your point of view includes farms in overseas like Indo??

does it make economical sense to u for the farms to do this ?

take a count , from the first parents of a Xback and a RTG (assuming they does this) to the F3 generation to produce this .... say 15 years .... 15 years to use XBacks to breed and with a carefully selective programme with these extensive efforts to produce this strain which is not exactly well priced, would u do this ?

or u would have used the xback breeding stocks by itself to produce more xbacks ?

this is assuming that farms in Indonesia have an abundance of xback breeding stocks which in reality, they dun have

[terence28]

John,

I failed my biology in 'O' levels but i find what u are saying makes sense to me. What i have observed in koi breeding is that the F1 offspring either look like the mother (which is desired) or the father, not a combination of the two.

Agree with u that the perception of aro breeding process has been over-simplified & sensationalised somehow...

Thanks for stepping out to address this issue. Cheers!

[Fire87]

does it make economical sense to u for the farms to do this ?

take a count , from the first parents of a Xback and a RTG (assuming they does this) to the F3 generation to produce this .... say 15 years .... 15 years to use XBacks to breed and with a carefully selective programme with these extensive efforts to produce this strain which is not exactly well priced, would u do this ?

or u would have used the xback breeding stocks by itself to produce more xbacks ?

this is assuming that farms in Indonesia have an abundance of xback breeding stocks which in reality, they dun have

However, we do see a difference between the RTGs from all the different farms. If it's not crossbred, we should see more or less a pretty uniform standard in the market. Else why would we be seeing some farms consistantly churning out rtgs with yellow transparent tails, yet the same coloration does not appear in rtgs of another farm?

Would selective breeding to produce rtgs with higher shine take a shorter time? I doubt so.

What if Xbacks are not in the equation? What if the programs had started already 10 years ago?

[untouchables]

if u breed a Red with a XBack, you get in this first generation an aro that looks either like the Red or the XBack and not a combination of both.

base on ur statement, a red x green = red or green but 100% of the time, we end up seeing 1.5 reds, ie traits of both red and green.

in any mixed breeding, there are bound to be both parents genes showing but the end result is based on which is the dominant genes. guppy breeders will be able to share on this since guppy breeding is primarily based on genes tracking.

for ty, first generation cannot be predicted so it is a risk to buy small. siblings will show different characteristics as well. what some farms do is to try to develop stable genes after 3-4 generations. check out dfi rose gold. they choose the first generation ty with a particular trait, like big finnages of red, deep core colours of xback, etc and breed them... over 2-3 generations, we can expect offsprings to resemble parents and siblings to resemble siblings but there are bound to be some odd ones. this is how people breed other fishes like lh, guppies, discus, etc.

as for hbrtg, there may be possibility of getting 5th based on 4th + 6th... chinese marry indian = ??? 99% of them are not as fair as chinese nor as dark as indian rite?

[jwhtan]

John,

I failed my biology in 'O' levels but i find what u are saying makes sense to me. What i have observed in koi breeding is that the F1 offspring either look like the mother (which is desired) or the father, not a combination of the two.

Agree with u that the perception of aro breeding process has been over-simplified & sensationalised somehow...

Thanks for stepping out to address this issue. Cheers!

I fear more when hobbyists put two and two together and arrive at some funny conclusions. It doesn't help when many workers of farms do not understand even abt basic genetics and pass on these misinformation on to hobbyists who take it as the whole truth and spread it like the gospel.

[Mewmender]

However, we do see a difference between the RTGs from all the different farms. If it's not crossbred, we should see more or less a pretty uniform standard in the market. Else why would we be seeing some farms consistantly churning out rtgs with yellow transparent tails, yet the same coloration does not appear in rtgs of another farm?


We do see the same thing in reds (orangy looking red, dark blood red colouration and so on ...) , xb, greens and not to mention 1.5 reds. parent A1 and parent A2's offspring will never be exactly the same as parent B1 and Parent B2's offspring even though they are the same species .

As long as the parents are different, no 2 different lines will look exactly simillar

[terence28]

I fear more when hobbyists put two and two together and arrive at some funny conclusions. It doesn't help when many workers of farms do not understand even abt basic genetics and pass on these misinformation on to hobbyists who take it as the whole truth and spread it like the gospel.

and not forgetting the marketing strategies...

[jwhtan]

However, we do see a difference between the RTGs from all the different farms. If it's not crossbred, we should see more or less a pretty uniform standard in the market. Else why would we be seeing some farms consistantly churning out rtgs with yellow transparent tails, yet the same coloration does not appear in rtgs of another farm?

Would selective breeding to produce rtgs with higher shine take a shorter time? I doubt so.

What if Xbacks are not in the equation? What if the programs had started already 10 years ago?

why do we see some rtgs with yellow tails ? this comes back to the thread where we were talking abt how pure our aros really are ... and why do some farms always have this trait ? tat is again because of the brooding stock...

would selective breeding take a shorter time, yes and no ... effectively it takes one generation less if u subscribed to the xb/rtg theory but further to tat, no since they all take at least 4 years each generation.

[jwhtan]

base on ur statement, a red x green = red or green but 100% of the time, we end up seeing 1.5 reds, ie traits of both red and green.

in any mixed breeding, there are bound to be both parents genes showing but the end result is based on which is the dominant genes. guppy breeders will be able to share on this since guppy breeding is primarily based on genes tracking.

for ty, first generation cannot be predicted so it is a risk to buy small. siblings will show different characteristics as well. what some farms do is to try to develop stable genes after 3-4 generations. check out dfi rose gold. they choose the first generation ty with a particular trait, like big finnages of red, deep core colours of xback, etc and breed them... over 2-3 generations, we can expect offsprings to resemble parents and siblings to resemble siblings but there are bound to be some odd ones. this is how people breed other fishes like lh, guppies, discus, etc.

as for hbrtg, there may be possibility of getting 5th based on 4th + 6th... chinese marry indian = ??? 99% of them are not as fair as chinese nor as dark as indian rite?

this is not entirely correct ... if u breed a red and a green .... u can get in the first generation (F1) offsprings tat looked either like a red or a green ... it will be the subsequent generation tat will show traits of a combination depending on which gene is dominant or recessive

look again when u look at offsprings of Indian/Chinese ... they do look like one or the other, not necessarily a combination of both

[kimkuan]

does it make economical sense to u for the farms to do this ?

take a count , from the first parents of a Xback and a RTG (assuming they does this) to the F3 generation to produce this .... say 15 years .... 15 years to use XBacks to breed and with a carefully selective programme with these extensive efforts to produce this strain which is not exactly well priced, would u do this ?

or u would have used the xback breeding stocks by itself to produce more xbacks ?

this is assuming that farms in Indonesia have an abundance of xback breeding stocks which in reality, they dun have
as some bros have commented.... it could have done so many years ago....

RTG stock indo has plenty... but XB not many....thus they might buy in a few XBs to breed with rtgs (and get XBs offsprings since A+B u can get A or B)....jus assuming.....:D (i got no proof :o)

[jwhtan]

as some bros have commented.... it could have done so many years ago....

RTG stock indo has plenty... but XB not many....thus they might buy in a few XBs to breed with rtgs (and get XBs offsprings since A+B u can get A or B)....jus assuming.....:D (i got no proof :o)

actually if u looked closely today, those HBRTGs are almost certainly from local farms

[kimkuan]

actually if u looked closely today, those HBRTGs are almost certainly from local farms
hehehehe.......sum from indo...:D

[Fire87]

We do see the same thing in reds (orangy looking red, dark blood red colouration and so on ...) , xb, greens and not to mention 1.5 reds. parent A1 and parent A2's offspring will never be exactly the same as parent B1 and Parent B2's offspring even though they are the same species .

As long as the parents are different, no 2 different lines will look exactly simillar

not exactly. the line of distinction is more prominent in golds than reds, if we're talking about arowanas RTG and upwards. like you said the offsprings of different pairings of even pure strain spawns would give different results, how is it that the certain characteristics of certain farm's products end up looking similar to each other, yet unique to other farms? They can't be consistantly from the same parents ma... even guppies can't spawn that fast and frequently.

line is one thing, but can it be possible that all the arowanas used in the broodstock came from just one breeding pair? Thats why the f3/4/5 share a common unique characteristic? it's probably not the case, IMO.

[pressure]

er.....

my two cents worth,

I think when you cross a grade 1 red with a XB, you will get a range of colouration of F1
ranging from red to "TY" to gold, this is mendelian genetics,

when you cross the F1 TY with F1 TY,

you will get either red or gold (going back to the F0)

when you cross F1 TY with F0,

you get the traits of the particular F1 TY brooder that you have used (backcrossing)

when you cross F1 TY with a red(not from the F0 stock), you will get almost clean batches of TY with colouration of TY + more red traits.


as for the HBRTG,

I think farmers breed them because of a few reasons:

1. RTG are more prolific breeders in our climate and conditions
2. the "XB" used in these breeding "programs" are either "lousy" ( which might also means hybrids) XB that did not cross, or it has very light colouration, or undesirable traits(short finnage, PLJ, short head)......

Totally agree with you that it has not economical sense to breed these....BUT...different breeders have different mind set...








why do we see some rtgs with yellow tails ? this comes back to the thread where we were talking abt how pure our aros really are ... and why do some farms always have this trait ? tat is again because of the brooding stock...

would selective breeding take a shorter time, yes and no ... effectively it takes one generation less if u subscribed to the xb/rtg theory but further to tat, no since they all take at least 4 years each generation.

[Mewmender]

not exactly. the line of distinction is more prominent in golds than reds, if we're talking about arowanas RTG and upwards. like you said the offsprings of different pairings of even pure strain spawns would give different results, how is it that the certain characteristics of certain farm's products end up looking similar to each other, yet unique to other farms? They can't be consistantly from the same parents ma... even guppies can't spawn that fast and frequently.

yes of course they do not breed constantly from the same parents? IMO no farm constantly have all their RTGs with yellowish tail, unless u have pics to prove me wrong


line is one thing, but can it be possible that all the arowanas used in the broodstock came from just one breeding pair? Thats why the f3/4/5 share a common unique characteristic? it's probably not the case, IMO


F3/4/5 could share a common characteristic due to the fact that they are inbred, and they could be backbred with the F1, so basically trying to keep the characteristics as simillar as possible .

[kimkuan]

not exactly. the line of distinction is more prominent in golds than reds, if we're talking about arowanas RTG and upwards. like you said the offsprings of different pairings of even pure strain spawns would give different results, how is it that the certain characteristics of certain farm's products end up looking similar to each other, yet unique to other farms? They can't be consistantly from the same parents ma... even guppies can't spawn that fast and frequently.

yes of course they do not breed constantly from the same parents? IMO no farm constantly have all their RTGs with yellowish tail, unless u have pics to prove me wrong


line is one thing, but can it be possible that all the arowanas used in the broodstock came from just one breeding pair? Thats why the f3/4/5 share a common unique characteristic? it's probably not the case, IMO


F3/4/5 could share a common characteristic due to the fact that they are inbred, and they could be backbred with the F1, so basically trying to keep the characteristics as simillar as possible .


does it means that....the farm owner from 1 look they can distinguish its they farm fish a not? :eek:

[Fire87]

why do we see some rtgs with yellow tails ? this comes back to the thread where we were talking abt how pure our aros really are ... and why do some farms always have this trait ? tat is again because of the brooding stock...

would selective breeding take a shorter time, yes and no ... effectively it takes one generation less if u subscribed to the xb/rtg theory but further to tat, no since they all take at least 4 years each generation.

so in the first place, are the brooding stock pure? if they aren't, then some form of crossbreeding would have occurred before, isn't it?

The HBRTG theory may have originated from another farm and then weaved into a fairytale, or it may have happened sometime ago, but then I do believe most of the HBRTGs in the market are not of RTGxXB descendence, but still, they may or may not be linebred with RTGxRTGs.

[Mewmender]

does it means that....the farm owner from 1 look they can distinguish its they farm fish a not? :eek:
if possible... i think if we lost our tags from our aros can bring back to the farm they should be able to identify it hor ? ;)

[kimkuan]

if possible... i think if we lost our tags from our aros can bring back to the farm they should be able to identify it hor ? ;)
dun think its possible leh....they so solid ah..:eek:
and they got import fish from other places too leh...:D:D

[jwhtan]

so in the first place, are the brooding stock pure? if they aren't, then some form of crossbreeding would have occurred before, isn't it?

The HBRTG theory may have originated from another farm and then weaved into a fairytale, or it may have happened sometime ago, but then I do believe most of the HBRTGs in the market are not of RTGxXB descendence, but still, they may or may not be linebred with RTGxRTGs.

yes some form of crossbreeding may have occurred but it is not like wat many have professed and spread it to be ... tat HBRTGs are a result of a breeding programme between Xbacks and RTGs ...

[Fire87]

yes of course they do not breed constantly from the same parents? IMO no farm constantly have all their RTGs with yellowish tail, unless u have pics to prove me wrong

F3/4/5 could share a common characteristic due to the fact that they are inbred, and they could be backbred with the F1, so basically trying to keep the characteristics as simillar as possible .

Yup no farm will constantly have all their RTGs with yellowish tail, but it's a little observation I made over time. I may be totally incorrect, or just half correct, but some farms do throw out these fish consistantly. No? I wish I had pics from all the spawns to prove, alas it's impossible.

Agree with the second paragraph but it doesn't shed light on the threadstarter's topic. So are we trying to try to conclude if HBRTGs are pure strains or whether the HBRTGs are in fact RTGxXB descendants?

[Fire87]

does it means that....the farm owner from 1 look they can distinguish its they farm fish a not? :eek:

Nope, who said that? :eek:

I guess you'd be more experienced than I am in the aro-keeping world. Isn't it more or less true aros from different farms have their own characteristics?

[Fire87]

yes some form of crossbreeding may have occurred but it is not like wat many have professed and spread it to be ... tat HBRTGs are a result of a breeding programme between Xbacks and RTGs ...

:eek: Hasn't the RTGxXB bubble been burst already?

[kimkuan]

yes some form of crossbreeding may have occurred but it is not like wat many have professed and spread it to be ... tat HBRTGs are a result of a breeding programme between Xbacks and RTGs ...
so, u agreed that xbreeding btw XB and RTG might occurs lar....its just that it dun makes sense to farms owners only...

[Mewmender]

Yup no farm will constantly have all their RTGs with yellowish tail, but it's a little observation I made over time. I may be totally incorrect, or just half correct, but some farms do throw out these fish consistantly. No? I wish I had pics from all the spawns to prove, alas it's impossible.

Agree with the second paragraph but it doesn't shed light on the threadstarter's topic. So are we trying to try to conclude if HBRTGs are pure strains or whether the HBRTGs are in fact RTGxXB descendants?

Imo nope, no 2 batches have exactly the same characteristics ....some might look simillar but they might not be genetically simillar. :)

I myself am in the camp of belivers that HBRTGs are juz selected and improved RTGs rather then the theory of crossing them with XBs ...
However for the theory of crossbreeding Xb with RTG resulting in HBRTG, the fish allele has to result in a mixture whereby AB co-dominant which the thread starter has mention isnt possible in the first few generations an may take many years which isnt commercially viable

[Fire87]

Imo nope, no 2 batches have exactly the same characteristics ....

I myself am in the camp of belivers that HBRTGs are juz selected and improved RTGs rather then the theory of crossing them with XBs ...
However for the theory of crossbreeding Xb with RTG resulting in HBRTG,i the fish allele has to result in a mixture whereby AB co-dominant which the thread starter has mention isnt possible in the first few generations an may take many years which isnt commercially viable

Never said any 2 batches can have exactly the same characteristics leh. Just that a larger percentage of them show traits that are seldom/not seen in another supposedly same-strain fish from another farm.

Like I had said in a previous post, what if XBs are not in the equation? What if SRs can be used to get the HBRTG effect? And what if RTGx(banjarXRTG) can produce a similar fish? Not suggesting anything, have no evidence to prove or what. Just a speculation.

[Fire87]

i no no.... but imo, even if the farm owner know...they will say no no...:D:p

agree... so if the farm owner say no no, then we will all no no. :p

[Mewmender]

Never said any 2 batches can have exactly the same characteristics leh. Just that a larger percentage of them show traits that are seldom/not seen in another supposedly same-strain fish from another farm.

oh ok,paiseh misread , but then again, none of us has seen every single aro from a certain farm, its very hard to conclude that most of them show that traits, i belive all of us only seen a small portion of all the aros produced by a farm (some are exported overseas and so on...not to mention the aros we have locally are juz a fraction of the amount a farm produces). Some LFS get to select their aros from the farm too, so they might have pick out those aros with the traits they like (eg yellowish tails) and sell at their shop?

juz my 0.2 cents :p

[shiokmc]

oh ok,paiseh misread , but then again, none of us has seen every single aro from a certain farm, its very hard to conclude that most of them show that traits, i belive all of us only seen a small portion of all the aros produced by a farm (some are exported overseas and so on...not to mention the aros we have locally are juz a fraction of the amount a farm produces). Some LFS get to select their aros from the farm too, so they might have pick out those aros with the traits they like (eg yellowish tails) and sell at their shop?

juz my 0.2 cents ;) diffwent lfs boss haff diffwent preferences n likings as u hav mentioned... :) some look for deepDarkBody-colouration some like big finnage some like bulletHeads some love spoonn

[Mewmender]

;) diffwent lfs boss haff diffwent preferences n likings as u hav mentioned... :) some look for deepDarkBody-colouration some like big finnage some like bulletHeads some love spoonn
precisely .... so how do we conclude all of them carry a simillar traits? :D

[fong]

if u breed a Red with a XBack, you get in this first generation an aro that looks either like the Red or the XBack and not a combination of both. Or that if you breed a RTG with a XBack, you will get an aro tat looks like an RTG or a XBack and not one that is a combination.

Hi John,

I have seen first generation of a cross breed that looks like a combination of both parents. For example, I used to have a Red Gold Hybrid that has a full red single tone tail (just like a red) and a cross back coloration on the body. This piece father is a cross back and mother is a red.

[vince]

yes some form of crossbreeding may have occurred but it is not like wat many have professed and spread it to be ... tat HBRTGs are a result of a breeding programme between Xbacks and RTGs ...

I tend to agree with this line of thought. Could it be that HBRTGs are what
I refer as "degraded" Xbacks due to inbreeding over sustained period either
by design or by accident. :eek:

[shiokmc]

precisely .... so how do we conclude all of them carry a simillar traits? :D
im pretty sure every batch of every farm would hav 'good/nice/premium ' ones and 'not so nice ones' ........ :p what u buy/choose all based on individual preferences lor ....

juz my 2sens

[draconis]

saw this on dfi's website...

the original page is at http://dragonfish.com/photo33.htm

One of the bigger CITES arowana farms in Kalimantan, Indonesia is P.T. DINAMIKA KAPUAS. We are proud to introduce its premium fish, the 'Metal Red' for the first time in Singapore. This trademarked fish is currently very popular in Japan due in part to its metallic sheen when fully grown as well as relatively larger finnages.
The Metal Red, is created through 20 years of selective breeding, using only the most stringent criterion. Only a limited quantity of adult brooders are being used for this special programme. Hence, here we are, introducing 20 pcs of Metal Red for the local as well as export market. All fishes will come with their original certificates, hand written and certified by its director, Mr Jimmy Wijaya.
...
...

what's the metal red that is created thru 20yrs of selective breeding? anyone got one?

[kagemaru]

I would also agree that HBRTG not necessary = RTG X XB

but there's always a question where does all these HB comes from:

If by selective breeding the highest quality RTG we should never get 5th level RTG

4th level RTG X 4th level RTG can never be better than their parents.

then something must have gone into the equation to make it cross over the 5th level...

Tats the issue when purity comes into the picture. There are XB in Indonesia but of a lesser amount as compared to Malaysia as most of these stocks are traded for...not naturally occuring in their habitat...I dun think Pekan baru have XB origins...mostly are RTGs

[Keane]

the so called HBRTGs are actually XBs that cannot make the grade set by the breeding farms for tagging and selling.......

[jwhtan]

the so called HBRTGs are actually XBs that cannot make the grade set by the breeding farms for tagging and selling.......

see ... this is worse ... something tat is pure speculation and completely not true ..... its very dangerous when these are propagated thru the internet as the truth especially to newbies who doesn't know abt this at all and its taken as the truth

[kagemaru]

the so called HBRTGs are actually XBs that cannot make the grade set by the breeding farms for tagging and selling.......

where got so many lousy "cannot make it" XB to label as HBRTG?...

probably becos of the bro mydusof hgrtg...

[jwhtan]

where got so many lousy "cannot make it" XB to label as HBRTG?...

probably becos of the bro mydusof hgrtg...

in the first place , how can anyone even grade a juvenile xback as a "cannot make it" XBack unless he already seen the parent fish and hv doubts

[XRTG]

just a tought. please don't take it seriously.

if i am a farmer and i can show you guys that my rtg pond has xb brooders, would you buy my so called hiback rtg?

as a hobbist, since the F1 rtgs either turn out to look like xb or rtg why won't i take a small gamble and buy these rtg?

hobbist might gain an aro that has xb qualities and paid a very small sum for it. or hobbist gets an rtg. so hobbist has nothing to loose and much more to gain.

farmer has much to gain as his rtg sales would increase. remember....not many hobbist can afford an xb. rtg still command a bigger market share when compared to xb or red. is it not a small price to pay to just throw in a few xb to improve sales?

dun flame me hor....... :)

[PeeCeeBee]

Hypothesis case :-

If i'm a farm owner and i have ponds of XB and ponds of RTG that did not breed after sometimes, i will feel the pressure and i might do something crazy hehehe... no breeding means no fish.....no fish means no sales....no sales means no money.....no money means close shop :p

One question for all to contribute :-

what do you get if you cross breed a good XB with a Green aro? what you do think the offspring should look like?

options :-

a) look exactly like XB and comes with better shine
b) looks very shinny and golden but no rims
c) looks like XB with rims and with green aro tail and horse shoe markings
d) become 1.5 gold

don't flame me hor.....just have some crazy thoughts cos i'm still very new :p

[jwhtan]

just a tought. please don't take it seriously.

if i am a farmer and i can show you guys that my rtg pond has xb brooders, would you buy my so called hiback rtg?

as a hobbist, since the F1 rtgs either turn out to look like xb or rtg why won't i take a small gamble and buy these rtg?

hobbist might gain an aro that has xb qualities and paid a very small sum for it. or hobbist gets an rtg. so hobbist has nothing to loose and much more to gain.

farmer has much to gain as his rtg sales would increase. remember....not many hobbist can afford an xb. rtg still command a bigger market share when compared to xb or red. is it not a small price to pay to just throw in a few xb to improve sales?

dun flame me hor....... :)

haizz ... really can't believe anyone wud think like this ...

by ur reasoning then i think they might as well put a few grade1 reds onto a grade 2 red breeding pond and show customers since the price descrepancy is even greater and there is an overabundance of these species which doesn't have a market here right now

[PeeCeeBee]

just a tought. please don't take it seriously.

if i am a farmer and i can show you guys that my rtg pond has xb brooders, would you buy my so called hiback rtg?

as a hobbist, since the F1 rtgs either turn out to look like xb or rtg why won't i take a small gamble and buy these rtg?

hobbist might gain an aro that has xb qualities and paid a very small sum for it. or hobbist gets an rtg. so hobbist has nothing to loose and much more to gain.

farmer has much to gain as his rtg sales would increase. remember....not many hobbist can afford an xb. rtg still command a bigger market share when compared to xb or red. is it not a small price to pay to just throw in a few xb to improve sales?

dun flame me hor....... :)

wow....you also suddenly imagine yourself to be farm owner too LOL

this thread has definitely spur some hopes on us hahaha

[jwhtan]

Hypothesis case :-

If i'm a farm owner and i have ponds of XB and ponds of RTG that did not breed after sometimes, i will feel the pressure and i might do something crazy hehehe... no breeding means no fish.....no fish means no sales....no sales means no money.....no money means close shop :p

One question for all to contribute :-

what do you get if you cross breed a good XB with a Green aro? what you do think the offspring should look like?

options :-

a) look exactly like XB and comes with better shine
b) looks very shinny and golden but no rims
c) looks like XB with rims and with green aro tail and horse shoe markings
d) become 1.5 gold

don't flame me hor.....just have some crazy thoughts cos i'm still very new :p

if u hv ponds of XBs and ponds of RTGs and still dun breed after some time, and u still dunno wat the reason is or where the fault lies, its true u better pack up and close shop ... lidat u not fit to be aro farmer at all :p :p

ur hypothethical case maybe last time backyard breeders will try but present day farms won't risk these unorthodox moves .... tat's why in some xbacks of today, occasionally u'll still see those very greenish traits tat manifests itself after many generations ... tat's the same 3:1 ratio of the segregation laws of genetics

[XRTG]

haizz ... really can't believe anyone wud think like this ...

by ur reasoning then i think they might as well put a few grade1 reds onto a grade 2 red breeding pond and show customers since the price descrepancy is even greater and there is an overabundance of these species which doesn't have a market here right now
you are rite there. :)

so the thing about F1 will either look like the father or mother. throw a g1 red and 1.5red will yeild what type of result? throw an rtg and xb will yeild what type of results?

so gold and gold still gold? red and green/red hybrid? i don't know but the market publicity i'd get to push my so call rtg hybrid would be quite good. people will surely want to try their luck with the aros that i'm selling.

[XRTG]

wow....you also suddenly imagine yourself to be farm owner too LOL

this thread has definitely spur some hopes on us hahaha
come on. business leh. you really think the farmers care about what breed with what? they only care about profits. so if they can increase sales by such means why not? more people buy rtg also better then nothing mah. :p

[jwhtan]

you are rite there. :)

so the thing about F1 will either look like the father or mother. throw a g1 red and 1.5red will yeild what type of result? throw an rtg and xb will yeild what type of results?

so gold and gold still gold? red and green/red hybrid? i don't know but the market publicity i'd get to push my so call rtg hybrid would be quite good. people will surely want to try their luck with the aros that i'm selling.

but these aros when they grow big will have no value as a brooding stock as the genes are likely to manifest itself in the next generation of breeding

[PeeCeeBee]

if u hv ponds of XBs and ponds of RTGs and still dun breed after some time, and u still dunno wat the reason is or where the fault lies, its true u better pack up and close shop ... lidat u not fit to be aro farmer at all :p :p

ur hypothethical case maybe last time backyard breeders will try but present day farms won't risk these unorthodox moves .... tat's why in some xbacks of today, occasionally u'll still see those very greenish traits tat manifests itself after many generations ... tat's the same 3:1 ratio of the segregation laws of genetics

you are so right....tt's why i'm not a farm owner mah...just a kacang puteh small time hobbyist keke

[PeeCeeBee]

come on. business leh. you really think the farmers care about what breed with what? they only care about profits. so if they can increase sales by such means why not? more people buy rtg also better then nothing mah. :p

luckily you did not mention any names here....if not kekeke

[XRTG]

but these aros when they grow big will have no value as a brooding stock as the genes are likely to manifest itself in the next generation of breeding
yes. the so call undesirable traits will come out in subsequent breeding of these aros. but, what they sell might not be what they'd use back for breeding. i'd rather do selective breeding on xb to improve my quality rather then selective breeding of rtg.

point is, can make money now make now. dun wait. that's what i feel about the farms now. how many of them actualy has F5 or F7 rtg on sale? (i might be ignorant about this) but point is.....i can always use other rtgs and xb from my current brooding stock to produce pure breeds. no need to use back the F1 that i sell. judging from production rates? aros can produce for the next 5 years after they mature before production declines....so farmers only worry about brood stock then. anyway, they can always keep some pure rtgs and xb to do this again.

dun know leh....maybe i too naive.

[XRTG]

luckily you did not mention any names here....if not kekeke
hehehe must be careful la.

i'm not saying all farms bad. but they never say what they do. so people will speculate. if they are more transparent maybe it'll be better for them. :) some farms don't even allow visitors. so what happens inside nobody knows. of course there is no need to let people know what's going on. more important is to produce more of these better quality aros.

but really.....are they so advance and have indepth knowledge in breeding aros? maybe. but then again that's for us to speculate. are they breeding aros for the benifits of hobbist or just profits? if you're a business man which one will come in first? profits or benifits for the hobbist?

[kagemaru]

I would think that the Law of Dominance from Mendelian Genetics would probably prevail for a F0 crossing

X - crossback
x - rtg

A cross of the parent aros F0 bearing X or x characteristics would result in the following:

XX - Crossback dominant traits
Xx - Crossback Dominant traits
xx - RTG dominant traits

This is on the assumption that X is the dominant genes and the offsprings would follow the dominant traits

Whereas on the other hand for Law of Segregation, 75% would be X and 25% to be x (the ratio of 3:1 proportion of the offsprings would be 75% XB and 25% RTG)

The other law of Independent Assortment would probably applies to the spoon head , bullet head characteristics coupled with a X or x characteristics

[Keane]

see ... this is worse ... something tat is pure speculation and completely not true ..... its very dangerous when these are propagated thru the internet as the truth especially to newbies who doesn't know abt this at all and its taken as the truth

my fren went to the showroom of a local fishfarm and there they have quite a few pcs of so-called hbrtg for sale........price is quoted at an astonishing $988..........when we asked the fishfarm worker there for the reasons for such a high price.........reply was as these pcs were XBs that cannot make the grade for tagging and selling as XBs........my fren bought one pc from them..........

i posted what i know and what i've heard.........from the farm pple themselves...........

[jwhtan]

my fren went to the showroom of a local fishfarm and there they have quite a few pcs of so-called hbrtg for sale........price is quoted at an astonishing $988..........when we asked the fishfarm worker there for the reasons for such a high price.........reply was as these pcs were XBs that cannot make the grade for tagging and selling as XBs........my fren bought one pc from them..........

i posted what i know and what i've heard.........from the farm pple themselves...........

this is exactly wat i mean when i post this

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3181067&postcount=15

[XRTG]

this is exactly wat i mean when i post this

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3181067&postcount=15
up till now, i still don't understand this. why would farm want to sell xb at such a lower price? xb still xb mah.

anyway......if it is true? could these be those F2 generation xb that might have F1 parents which also has rtg heritage? so they turn out to be lousy xb thus being sold as high grade rtg?

hahaha....john surely will be shaking his head on my silly assumptions.

[Keane]

this is exactly wat i mean when i post this

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3181067&postcount=15

hmm.........maybe i can ask my fren to join arofanatics and showcase his so called hbrtg with nice pearlies developed and 5th level already fully crossed presently..........traits possible to be found in RTGs whether hb or not?

[XRTG]

hmm.........maybe i can ask my fren to join arofanatics and showcase his so called hbrtg with nice pearlies developed and 5th level already fully crossed presently..........traits possible to be found in RTGs whether hb or not?
please do. :) would welcome new members to share knowledge with us. :)

[shiokmc]

yes. the so call undesirable traits will come out in subsequent breeding of these aros. but, what they sell might not be what they'd use back for breeding. i'd rather do selective breeding on xb to improve my quality rather then selective breeding of rtg.

point is, can make money now make now. dun wait. that's what i feel about the farms now. how many of them actualy has F5 or F7 rtg on sale? (i might be ignorant about this) but point is.....i can always use other rtgs and xb from my current brooding stock to produce pure breeds. no need to use back the F1 that i sell. judging from production rates? aros can produce for the next 5 years after they mature before production declines....so farmers only worry about brood stock then. anyway, they can always keep some pure rtgs and xb to do this again.

dun know leh....maybe i too naive.
interesting points .......
:p
hmm.........maybe i can ask my fren to join arofanatics and showcase his so called hbrtg with nice pearlies developed and 5th level already fully crossed presently..........traits possible to be found in RTGs whether hb or not?
please do .... moRe the merrier ... afterall, its an oPen forum

[Keane]

up till now, i still don't understand this. why would farm want to sell xb at such a lower price? xb still xb mah.

anyway......if it is true? could these be those F2 generation xb that might have F1 parents which also has rtg heritage? so they turn out to be lousy xb thus being sold as high grade rtg?

hahaha....john surely will be shaking his head on my silly assumptions.

spot on........me and my fren asked the same question when we're not sure if what the farm chap has said was true..........he replied with a question........why would any farm in theor right frame of mind want to breed XBs and RTGs to get the legendary HBRTG which is still classified as a RTG?

his so-called XBs rejects numbers are only very minor for each of the broods the farm harvest......

i say again........i'm just stating a fact which i learn/heard from the farm pple themselves.......so pls dun lecture me this and that..........as i'm an aro fanatic coming here to discuss and learn.........

[inca168]

respect your explaination :) :) :)

[jpn]

this is exactly wat i mean when i post this

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3181067&postcount=15
Care to share the insights on why we have Hiback Rtg? One dun refute the claims without giving the whole picture. I don't complain without giving solutions. I'm not against ur claims but just hope to know more as a hobbist. I think there are many members here who want to know to. I sincerely hope u can try to answer this please. You claim HBrtg is not a hybrid between a xback golden n a rtg based on the suggestion it is not lucrative enough for them to cross breed. There are many speculations about hbrtg, etc. However by just suggesting it is not lucrative enough for them to crossbreed is not convincing enough. Or you can provide more insights on hiback? How exactly we get hiback rtgs? There are bros here who mention a 4level shine bred with a 4 level shine don't give u fifth level shine. Cross breeding with crossback golden is not lucrative, perhaps, cross breeding with crossback green might be lucrative? :p Oh by the way, this is just a suggestion. Nothing concrete. We are begining to see more and more Rtgs that look more like crossbacks, why is this happening?

[Fire87]

spot on........me and my fren asked the same question when we're not sure if what the farm chap has said was true..........he replied with a question........why would any farm in theor right frame of mind want to breed XBs and RTGs to get the legendary HBRTG which is still classified as a RTG?

his so-called XBs rejects numbers are only very minor for each of the broods the farm harvest......

i say again........i'm just stating a fact which i learn/heard from the farm pple themselves.......so pls dun lecture me this and that..........as i'm an aro fanatic coming here to discuss and learn.........

interesting. so now we have another problem about the purity of XBs in the market. :confused:

[XRTG]

for your information, i do have a friend who owns a PG with pearles and 6th level crossing similar to an xb. but lack the intensity of the golden shine. perhaps he's one of the lucky few who owns a really rare rtg.

just saying is not enough. need to take picture. i'll see if he'll permit me to take some pictures :) for the benefit of this discussion.

[Keane]

interesting. so now we have another problem about the purity of XBs in the market. :confused:

hi bro fire 87.........i'm juz giving my own opinion on this..........i think there shd be no problem for the enforcement and confidence of the purity of XB breeds from registered farms here...........they wudn't want to jeopardise this avenue of proft-making..........but the standard of the pure XB-XB broods would definitely vary in standards........

and as can be seen from the aros which i'm keeping........can see that i'm totally not into goldies........also dunno why i'm getting involved in this sort of argumentative thread.......sigh........

[shiokmc]

hi bro fire 87.........i'm juz giving my own opinion on this..........i think there shd be no problem for the enforcement and confidence of the purity of XB breeds from registered farms here...........they wudn't want to jeopardise this avenue of proft-making..........but the standard of the pure XB-XB broods would definitely vary in standards........
right on ........... !!


i believe every batch have 'good' ones n 'not-so-good' ones... irregardless of farms ;)

[Beerman]

where got so many lousy "cannot make it" XB to label as HBRTG?...

probably becos of the bro mydusof hgrtg...


There is a reason behide this! There is no cannot make it xb or rtg to me the lucky star is shinning on him so........ let it me. It is abit miss leading on his posting u cant blame him this is what he bought as! So........

[XRTG]

whooo hoooo the bearman is here. :)

[Beerman]

Care to share the insights on why we have Hiback Rtg? One dun refute the claims without giving the whole picture. I don't complain without giving solutions. I'm not against ur claims but just hope to know more as a hobbist. I think there are many members here who want to know to. I sincerely hope u can try to answer this please. You claim HBrtg is not a hybrid between a xback golden n a rtg based on the suggestion it is not lucrative enough for them to cross breed. There are many speculations about hbrtg, etc. However by just suggesting it is not lucrative enough for them to crossbreed is not convincing enough. Or you can provide more insights on hiback? How exactly we get hiback rtgs? There are bros here who mention a 4level shine bred with a 4 level shine don't give u fifth level shine. Cross breeding with crossback golden is not lucrative, perhaps, cross breeding with crossback green might be lucrative? :p Oh by the way, this is just a suggestion. Nothing concrete. We are begining to see more and more Rtgs that look more like crossbacks, why is this happening?


Why dont u go n scerch some old thread before u reply? There r afew thread relayed to this....... :D

[mihatah]

nobody will be right or wrong....... the truth is out there....

[Beerman]

whooo hoooo the bearman is here. :)

Is beerman not bearmam!!!!!!!

[Keane]

right on ........... !!


i believe every batch have 'good' ones n 'not-so-good' ones... irregardless of farms ;)

ok.......i'm gonna wallow on based on what i know from the farm chap.......

to quote his saying >> the farm will rather tag those minority of so-called "cannot make it" XBs as RTGs or HBRTGs.......

His seasons >> win-win situation for the farm........to tag the "low standard" XB as XBs to be sold in the market will sort of tarnish their farm reputation.........and on the other hand........if they tag the "rejected" XBs as HBRTGs or RTGs, which later turn out to be cool.......will ultimately do good to their farm reputation (for their RTGs)......

[Beerman]

nobody will be right or wrong....... the truth is out there....


truth?????? PPL believe??????????

[XRTG]

Is beerman not bearmam!!!!!!!

hahahaha too tired liow. sorry for the mistake mr beer. :eek:

i'm gonna sleep liow lah.....talk untill morning also the same.....we still dun know what's going on.

for now just enjoy our aros as it is. no point talking so much leh. rtg is rtg and xb is xb. thats it. :)

[mihatah]

truth?????? PPL believe??????????


can't say too much.....
u know i know......
hahaha....

[Beerman]

ok.......i'm gonna wallow on based on what i know from the farm chap.......

to quote his saying >> the farm will rather tag those minority of so-called "cannot make it" XBs as RTGs or HBRTGs.......

His seasons >> win-win situation for the farm........to tag the "low standard" XB as XBs to be sold in the market will sort of tarnish their farm reputation.........and on the other hand........if they tag the "rejected" XBs as HBRTGs or RTGs, which later turn out to be cool.......will ultimately do good to their farm reputation (for their RTGs)......


Ney!!!!!!!!!! No! This is not true!

Remember the $888 rtg x xb off-spring that was release early last year???

[Beerman]

hahahaha too tired liow. sorry for the mistake mr beer. :eek:

i'm gonna sleep liow lah.....talk untill morning also the same.....we still dun know what's going on.

for now just enjoy our aros as it is. no point talking so much leh. rtg is rtg and xb is xb. thats it. :)


I thought i am drunk..... look lik u r more drunk than me! hahahaa... :rolleyes:

[shiokmc]

can't say too much.....
u know i know......
hahaha....
:eek:






neber whiSper n shareshare w newbie me ??? :(

[Beerman]

Look like purity is a big problem in year to come! :(

[kentfon]

After reading about it was still wondering " I think i getting old and stupid"

How in the first place HBRTG come about??
when in the first place rtg ever have fifth row shine needless to say shine on the 6th and pearlies,so wat breed are these then?

From my knowledge during the seventies rtg only have 4th row and most of the time they are really dark and the lower half tail fins are really blood shot red any gold shine above the 4th row scales are consider x-back and in those days the x-backs do not exibit any red fins most of them are pale
(from my own knowledge only)

When was BMB introduce is there really a true blue base adult x-back with prominent gold rims??(sori a bit off topic ) or is it a cross breed form?

Sori if i offend anyone this is just my view :o

[Koji™]

Look like purity is a big problem in year to come! :(
Agree with you arh boss...:(

[kagemaru]

After reading about it was still wondering " I think i getting old and stupid"

How in the first place HBRTG come about??
when in the first place rtg ever have fifth row shine needless to say shine on the 6th and pearlies,so wat breed are these then?

From my knowledge during the seventies rtg only have 4th row and most of the time they are really dark and the lower half tail fins are really blood shot red any gold shine above the 4th row scales are consider x-back and in those days the x-backs do not exibit any red fins most of them are pale
(from my own knowledge only)

When was BMB introduce is there really a true blue base adult x-back with prominent gold rims??(sori a bit off topic ) or is it a cross breed form?

Sori if i offend anyone this is just my view :o

bro I like ur question:D thats what I was told too...* sorry in the seventies I still dun have chance to own a goldfish:o but the true classic rtg should be as u described...there are still some old rtgs in Indo which are quite "pure" in that sense

True blue XB now where to find...got any lobang u tell me I go and buy:p

[jwhtan]

spot on........me and my fren asked the same question when we're not sure if what the farm chap has said was true..........he replied with a question........why would any farm in theor right frame of mind want to breed XBs and RTGs to get the legendary HBRTG which is still classified as a RTG?

his so-called XBs rejects numbers are only very minor for each of the broods the farm harvest......

i say again........i'm just stating a fact which i learn/heard from the farm pple themselves.......so pls dun lecture me this and that..........as i'm an aro fanatic coming here to discuss and learn.........

unfortunately wat u are stating is not fact but is misinformation taken as fact and passed and spread on like the gospel

the reasoning the farms give u may (I stress may) be a reason if its a one off scenario , say perhaps those HGRTGs but batches and batches of HBRTGs and this cannot be the case anymore. How could farms make the same old mistakes and erred all the time and so many farms at tat too

[jwhtan]

Care to share the insights on why we have Hiback Rtg? One dun refute the claims without giving the whole picture. I don't complain without giving solutions. I'm not against ur claims but just hope to know more as a hobbist. I think there are many members here who want to know to. I sincerely hope u can try to answer this please. You claim HBrtg is not a hybrid between a xback golden n a rtg based on the suggestion it is not lucrative enough for them to cross breed. There are many speculations about hbrtg, etc. However by just suggesting it is not lucrative enough for them to crossbreed is not convincing enough. Or you can provide more insights on hiback? How exactly we get hiback rtgs? There are bros here who mention a 4level shine bred with a 4 level shine don't give u fifth level shine. Cross breeding with crossback golden is not lucrative, perhaps, cross breeding with crossback green might be lucrative? :p Oh by the way, this is just a suggestion. Nothing concrete. We are begining to see more and more Rtgs that look more like crossbacks, why is this happening?

who can give the whole picture ... look i'm no authority on arowanas ... i put forward my understanding of genetics and the economic reasons why Hiback RTGs is not a result of XB and RTG crossbreed and its not "just by suggesting it is not lucrative enough" ... pls do go and read my reasons on the genetic part and if u do think I'm wrong or have erred somewhat, do correct me.

[Mewmender]

Then wad about HGRTGs? are they a product of intensive selective breeding of RTGs or??

Their shine lvl was prominent even when they are 5-6 inch (5th lvl already clear for some ) which is something u hardly see in most RTGs. However i notice this was only true for the first few batches and subsequent batches no longer show such characteristics :confused:

someone care to share their views on this?

[Stryker]

Then wad about HGRTGs? are they a product of intensive selective breeding of RTGs or??

Their shine lvl was prominent even when they are 5-6 inch which is something u hardly see in most RTGs. However i notice this was only true for the first few batches and subsequent batches no longer show such characteristics :confused:

someone care to share their views on this?
my take is selective breeding n u dun need a xb to have high shine :D

[jwhtan]

Then wad about HGRTGs? are they a product of intensive selective breeding of RTGs or??

Their shine lvl was prominent even when they are 5-6 inch which is something u hardly see in most RTGs. However i notice this was only true for the first few batches and subsequent batches no longer show such characteristics :confused:

someone care to share their views on this?

how many batches of HGRTGs are there ?

[Mewmender]

how many batches of HGRTGs are there ?
im not sure but i notice those tagged between April-May displayed such a characteristic whereas HGRTG tagged after that period seem to no longer have such characteristcs .

obviously i have not seen every single piece but its juz a conclusion i made from viewing them from serveral lfs, Qh itself and also those inside the QH van.

[XRTG]

who can give the whole picture ... look i'm no authority on arowanas ... i put forward my understanding of genetics and the economic reasons why Hiback RTGs is not a result of XB and RTG crossbreed and its not "just by suggesting it is not lucrative enough" ... pls do go and read my reasons on the genetic part and if u do think I'm wrong or have erred somewhat, do correct me.


i feel hiback is not a result of breeding rtg with xback. should be done thru selective breeding. but i feel some farm may really use such methods to push up sales revenue.

one product - hiback rtg. (selective breeding of RTG)
the other - crossbreed rtg (xb and rtg)

both will push sales up as hobbist crave for such things. so y sell those old type rtg?

[jwhtan]

im not sure but i notice those tagged between April-May displayed such a characteristic whereas HGRTG tagged after that period seem to no longer have such characteristcs .

obviously i have not seen every single piece but its juz a conclusion i made from viewing them from serveral lfs, Qh itself and also those inside the QH van.

i've not seen enough HGRTGs to really comment on them .... personally i'll treat them as a one off case. This HGRTG is not really something tat is widespread in the market, its exclusive to a single farm only

[Mewmender]

both will push sales up as hobbist crave for such things. so y sell those old type rtg?
there are still hardcore RTG "purist" around who are looking for so called "old type" rtg still :p

[XRTG]

there are still hardcore RTG "purist" around who are looking for so called "old type" rtg still :p
majority? or monority? if got a lot of hardcore old type rtg, then y farms are not producing to cater to larger market share?

[Mewmender]

majority? or monority? if got a lot of hardcore old type rtg, then y farms are not producing to cater to larger market share?
i suppose its a minority locally.
are u refering to farms locally or in the region ? it seems to me that a majority of such "new type" RTG are produced locally whereas we still see more "normal" RTG being produced from overseas farm .

[kagemaru]

majority? or monority? if got a lot of hardcore old type rtg, then y farms are not producing to cater to larger market share?

Agree...I only see hobbyist willing to pay more for higher shine n not the other way round

Ask how much ppl will pay for a 10" 4th levl shine RTG and a 10" 5th level shine bugger;)

[jwhtan]

i feel hiback is not a result of breeding rtg with xback. should be done thru selective breeding. but i feel some farm may really use such methods to push up sales revenue.

one product - hiback rtg. (selective breeding of RTG)
the other - crossbreed rtg (xb and rtg)

both will push sales up as hobbist crave for such things. so y sell those old type rtg?

First in all my first hand experience in visiting farms, I've never come across a farm tat puts in XB and RTGs in a same pond at all, but tat's just me so perhaps we shd not discount that ...

So perhaps we look at how a XB might possibly breed with a RTG and produce the next generation of phenotypes parents. To do this , the farmer would have to at 100% accuracy place in the pond XBs and RTGs tat are of the opposite sex. One single mistake and u could result in RTG X RTG or XB X XBs. And we know tat even the best, most experienced farmer wud hv difficulty in accurately identifying the sex. Unless one has the advantage of the DNA test which is another complicated process. And 15 years ago,(if we take tat indeed this had happened), we wud have nothing like this DNA thingy at the farms at all

[kagemaru]

i suppose its a minority locally.
are u refering to farms locally or in the region ? it seems to me that a majority of such "new type" RTG are produced locally whereas we still see lots of normal RTG being produced from overseas farm .

typical demand supply scenerio, when u in business, u do watever will bring in the dough...

Overseas not doing it probably due to John's reason - economically not worthwhile

Locally everyone goes for high shine - hence there's a reason to "improve" the strain -->most aro breeders started off from basis where they are used to the alteration of strain variant

[XRTG]

i suppose its a minority locally.
are u refering to farms locally or in the region ? it seems to me that a majority of such "new type" RTG are produced locally whereas we still see lots of normal RTG being produced from overseas farm .

is it really so? we dun have data on overseas farms. we can only see what's happening in the local market. perhaps some of our bros who are more informed can let us know.

but if singapore is the leader in arowana production, i think we will always try to be market leader. so we are producing something first and fast. might be that overseas farms are playing catching up game? just my speculation as i really do not know.

[kagemaru]

Playing the game of dominant genes u may be able to shorten the guessing work of Male RTG with Female XBs or vice versa...the crucial point is to identify the dominant genes and you can slowly but surely improve ur genetics:

Using hypothetical model:

RTG male(x) x RTG female(x) - RTG dominant genes(x)
RTG male(x) x XB female(X) - XB Dominant genes (X)
XB male(X) x RTG female(x) - XB Dominant genes (X)
XB male(X) x XB female(X) - XB Dominant genes (X)

So going back to the law of seggregation, u get 3:1 brood of XB dominant genes

This is on the assumption that XB genes compared to the RTG genes are more dominant in the process of breeding

[XRTG]

First in all my first hand experience in visiting farms, I've never come across a farm tat puts in XB and RTGs in a same pond at all, but tat's just me so perhaps we shd not discount that ...

So perhaps we look at how a XB might possibly breed with a RTG and produce the next generation of phenotypes parents. To do this , the farmer would have to at 100% accuracy place in the pond XBs and RTGs tat are of the opposite sex. One single mistake and u could result in RTG X RTG or XB X XBs. And we know tat even the best, most experienced farmer wud hv difficulty in accurately identifying the sex. Unless one has the advantage of the DNA test which is another complicated process. And 15 years ago,(if we take tat indeed this had happened), we wud have nothing like this DNA thingy at the farms at all

john,

if you really want to do this. just make sure all the brooders for such crossbreed are xb. but having said that.....i'm aware that sometimes brooders could be females as well.

but point is........i'm trying to market my product. i'm telling you my breeding pond has xb and rtgs and as far as i know the brooders are xb. rtgs could be males or females.

if i harvest, and an xb is carrying the fries....the fries are called crossbreed. so can sell at premium rtg price.

if an rtg carries the fries then it is called rtg. it is really a simple step cos you are sure those brooders that up place in the pond are xb.

now weather the farms really do this. i don't know and i'm also guessing only. but you see, it can be done.

[XRTG]

Playing the game of dominant genes u may be able to shorten the guessing work of Male RTG with Female XBs or vice versa...the crucial point is to identify the dominant genes and you can slowly but surely improve ur genetics:

Using hypothetical model:

RTG male(x) x RTG female(x) - RTG dominant genes(x)
RTG male(x) x XB female(X) - XB Dominant genes (X)
XB male(X) x RTG female(x) - XB Dominant genes (X)
XB male(X) x XB female(X) - XB Dominant genes (X)

So going back to the law of seggregation, u get 3:1 brood of XB dominant genes

This is on the assumption that XB genes compared to the RTG genes are more dominant in the process of breeding


hi bro. good one. but do they always go to the same female and mate with them? the farms are only sure of the males but never the females. so how are they to determine the seggregation ratio?

[kimkuan]

john,

if you really want to do this. just make sure all the brooders for such crossbreed are xb. but having said that.....i'm aware that sometimes brooders could be females as well.

but point is........i'm trying to market my product. i'm telling you my breeding pond has xb and rtgs and as far as i know the brooders are xb. rtgs could be males or females.

if i harvest, and an xb is carrying the fries....the fries are called crossbreed. so can sell at premium rtg price.

if an rtg carries the fries then it is called rtg. it is really a simple step cos you are sure those brooders that up place in the pond are xb.

now weather the farms really do this. i don't know and i'm also guessing only. but you see, it can be done.


when talk abt farms r u talking abt "Farms" or Farms?

[XRTG]

when talk abt farms r u talking abt "Farms" or Farms?
sorry ah...i very stupid. dun understand what you're trying to say. anyway....we are not refering to anyone or organization. just a general discussion on what they the farms might do or don't do since it's a hush hush to them.

[Beerman]

Do purity play a role when u go n purchase arowana? Yes or no?

[XRTG]

Do purity play a role when u go n purchase arowana? Yes or no?
to me yes and no. buy xb or red must make sure its xb. but buy tkl or 1.5red dun care cos as long nice can liow.

how about you?

[jwhtan]

john,

if you really want to do this. just make sure all the brooders for such crossbreed are xb. but having said that.....i'm aware that sometimes brooders could be females as well.

but point is........i'm trying to market my product. i'm telling you my breeding pond has xb and rtgs and as far as i know the brooders are xb. rtgs could be males or females.

if i harvest, and an xb is carrying the fries....the fries are called crossbreed. so can sell at premium rtg price.

if an rtg carries the fries then it is called rtg. it is really a simple step cos you are sure those brooders that up place in the pond are xb.

now weather the farms really do this. i don't know and i'm also guessing only. but you see, it can be done.

no how can this be assumed in this manner ... tat if the brooder is a XB then its a XBreed ... lets say the brooder is a XBack, it could have jolly well been the eggs of another XBack it is carrying ... first u ask urself , will farms then sell this XBack as HBRTG ? and lower their revenue ?? secondly have we then now seen so called HBRTGs but they are really XBs ??? if this was so, we wud see these specimens widely in the market already

[jwhtan]

Do purity play a role when u go n purchase arowana? Yes or no?

its no longer whether they do play a role ... we shd accept tat the aros are not as pure as many would like it to be

[XRTG]

no how can this be assumed in this manner ... tat if the brooder is a XB then its a XBreed ... lets say the brooder is a XBack, it could have jolly well been the eggs of another XBack it is carrying ... first u ask urself , will farms then sell this XBack as HBRTG ? and lower their revenue ?? secondly have we then now seen so called HBRTGs but they are really XBs ??? if this was so, we wud see these specimens widely in the market already

i already said. if i'm sure all my xb are males in a rtg mix xb pond. how can 2 male xb mate? you said it yourself. must be 100% sure. so just make sure all xb are male brooders. :)

i think its a small price to pay for such publicity leh. we've seen some of our bros selling in the buy forum such crossbreed rtg leh. even the farm name spelt out. isn't it good publicity?

[jwhtan]

i already said. if i'm sure all my xb are males in a rtg mix xb pond. how can 2 male xb mate? you said it yourself. must be 100% sure. so just make sure all xb are male brooders. :)

i think its a small price to pay for such publicity leh. we've seen some of our bros selling in the buy forum such crossbreed rtg leh. even the farm name spelt out. isn't it good publicity?

the problem is even the most experienced farmer cannot be sure, not now and certainly not 15 years ago when DNA testing is not available and sorry, i dun recall u saying tat all the XBs are male, u acknowledge tat brooders may be female too

[PeeCeeBee]

Do purity play a role when u go n purchase arowana? Yes or no?

YES if i know how to see purity in a small fish..... NO if i have a lot of money and the arowana is appealing to me :p

[jwhtan]

YES if i know how to see purity in a small fish..... NO if i have a lot of money and the arowana is appealing to me :p

i think wat's more important to hobbyist is tat these less than pure arowanas ... do they actually make the fish look better or do they manifest those recessive genes and make the aro looked worse

[Beerman]

its no longer whether they do play a role ... we shd accept tat the aros are not as pure as many would like it to be

In years to come it will be worst! Alot of new farms are coming out so new breed, new names , extra $ to pay and pay n pay n pay...... once U.S market open lagi worst...... again u have to pay more!!!! Pay more nevermind wait they tell u "No Stock"! Basket horse! :eek:

Cant see how pure so need to buy from good reputation farms. Play save! hahaa

[PeeCeeBee]

i think wat's more important to hobbyist is tat these less than pure arowanas ... do they actually make the fish look better or do they manifest those recessive genes and make the aro looked worse

honestly, how pure is pure? i don't even know how a pure red arowana should be....or how pure a xb should be.....i buy what i see and what i feel is nice....whether the genes manifested are good traits or recessive types....the fish will show you hehe....

Purity to hobbyists nowadays should not be as important, if yes, nobody will buy arowana like TY.

[lixiaolong]

To the local breeding farm, as long as their breeding program make profits I think they will!;) IMHO.

i tend to agree with aroboy. one japanese breeder spent some 20 years crossbreeding without success!

[Beerman]

YES if i know how to see purity in a small fish..... NO if i have a lot of money and the arowana is appealing to me :p

Dont say how pure sometime i cant even tell a 4" aro if the owner or farmer did not disclose the answer to me! RTG,XB,TY 4" i cant tell dont talk about purity. heehee....

[PeeCeeBee]

Dont say how pure sometime i cant even tell a 4" aro if the owner or farmer did not disclose the answer to me! RTG,XB,TY 4" i cant tell dont talk about purity. heehee....

see....you sifu also cannot tell....how can i tell? i buy fish also tikum tikum one....who can tell me he buy fish at 5-6" can confirm turn red or turn full gold?

well....except one former fish shop guy told me he can guarantee his reds turn red or money back....but now hard to find such ppl :mad:

[jwhtan]

see....you sifu also cannot tell....how can i tell? i buy fish also tikum tikum one....who can tell me he buy fish at 5-6" can confirm turn red or turn full gold?

well....except one former fish shop guy told me he can guarantee his reds turn red or money back....but now hard to find such ppl :mad:

u know no one can guarantee how red their red will turn out ... the worse thing is when these people say these things, some hobbyists will take in everything they've said as fact and passed it around to everyone they meet, spreading untruths as the gospel and this particularly is dangerous as we then get a scenario where the blind leads the blind

[XRTG]

the problem is even the most experienced farmer cannot be sure, not now and certainly not 15 years ago when DNA testing is not available and sorry, i dun recall u saying tat all the XBs are male, u acknowledge tat brooders may be female too

true true. :) may be hard to do so.

but i think its a small price to pay for if i as a farm can increase my market share and increase the price of my products. don't you agree? :p

[XRTG]

In years to come it will be worst! Alot of new farms are coming out so new breed, new names , extra $ to pay and pay n pay n pay...... once U.S market open lagi worst...... again u have to pay more!!!! Pay more nevermind wait they tell u "No Stock"! Basket horse! :eek:

Cant see how pure so need to buy from good reputation farms. Play save! hahaa


wah now can buy more better buy more. in the future aros will be even more ex..... :(

[jwhtan]

true true. :) may be hard to do so.

but i think its a small price to pay for if i as a farm can increase my market share and increase the price of my products. don't you agree? :p

I agree its a small price to pay if anyone can increase their market share and increase the price ... however, having said that ... we've seen tat there's been no real increase in the price or market share, not at all ...

And I think it'll be too difficult for a farmer to even forecast that they can increase their market share or revenue 15 years down the road for them to embark on a programme like this ...

In maybe 1995, 1996 ... prices of RTGs were abt maybe $600 .....

At around 1998 ... prices of RTGs dropped ike crazy, to as low as $250 ...

and now 2005 it hovering around $350 - $500, there's no real increase in revenue or even market share at all ... in fact, demand for RTGs today is actually less than when the LH craze begins to crash and the LH hobbyist first convert to arokeeping and buy the " entry " asian aro

[XRTG]

I agree its a small price to pay if anyone can increase their market share and increase the price ... however, having said that ... we've seen tat there's been no real increase in the price or market share, not at all ...

And I think it'll be too difficult for a farmer to even forecast that they can increase their market share or revenue 15 years down the road for them to embark on a programme like this ...

In maybe 1995, 1996 ... prices of RTGs were abt maybe $600 .....

At around 1998 ... prices of RTGs dropped ike crazy, to as low as $250 ...

and now 2005 it hovering around $350 - $500, there's no real increase in revenue or even market share at all ... in fact, demand for RTGs today is actually less than when the LH craze begins to crash and the LH hobbyist first convert to arokeeping and buy the " entry " asian aro

you're rite about pricing. so the key is here is,.......for the farms to survive they must sell more to cover their expenses. so why not create what many people wants? mixed breed rtg and hiback rtg? if by now you're still selling normal 4th level shine rtg, think your rtg sales would suffer. so y not just do it and get the $$$$ in. if my competitor release news to the market that their rtg crossbreed with xb....my sales would suffer leh. so i must do something rite?

[XRTG]

hi guys....

i'm just having fun and stating what i think only. no intention of picking on anybody hor. ;)

[jwhtan]

you're rite about pricing. so the key is here is,.......for the farms to survive they must sell more to cover their expenses. so why not create what many people wants? mixed breed rtg and hiback rtg? if by now you're still selling normal 4th level shine rtg, think your rtg sales would suffer. so y not just do it and get the $$$$ in. if my competitor release news to the market that their rtg crossbreed with xb....my sales would suffer leh. so i must do something rite?

did anyone release news tat their rtg crossbreed with xback ?

in reality no one single farm has done tat ... no one has said tat but just pure speculation on the part of hobbyist ...

lets say even if someone does tat and releases the news, bearing in mind the genetic factor, he wud hv got at least a two generation headstart to other competitors, ie easily 8years ... so how could it possibly tat other farms can catch up ?

[XRTG]

did anyone release news tat their rtg crossbreed with xback ?

in reality no one single farm has done tat ... no one has said tat but just pure speculation on the part of hobbyist ...

lets say even if someone does tat and releases the news, bearing in mind the genetic factor, he wud hv got at least a two generation headstart to other competitors, ie easily 8years ... so how could it possibly tat other farms can catch up ?

2 generations? 8 years? how could it be? open market you can get adult rtg and xb if you willing to pay mah? very difficult for farms to get them meh? at most after mixing and releasing into the pond, 1 or 2 year of delay mah. y wait for 2 generations? :o

sorry ah i sua ku la. :o

[jwhtan]

pure breed or contaminated with recessive traits ???

take a look or if possible ID wat aro this is


http://arofanatics.com/members/jwhtan/showcasepics/image04.jpg

[jwhtan]

2 generations? 8 years? how could it be? open market you can get adult rtg and xb if you willing to pay mah? very difficult for farms to get them meh? at most after mixing and releasing into the pond, 1 or 2 year of delay mah. y wait for 2 generations? :o

sorry ah i sua ku la. :o

errr ... i think u still dun see my point on the genetic part of this discussion and think tat as long as u put in an rtg and a xb, walaaa ... u get ur hiback rtg

[Beerman]

Page 2, My primum RTG by ChuckII go n check his rtg x xb = hbrtg picture! Go see n tell me what aro is that. :rolleyes:

[XRTG]

errr ... i think u still dun see my point on the genetic part of this discussion and think tat as long as u put in an rtg and a xb, walaaa ... u get ur hiback rtg

john. i see your part. i agree with you, we dun get hiback by just mixing both. in fact i belive hiback comes from selective breeding.

i'm just putting accross that it is attractive for farms to crossbreed rtg and xb. think many of us also get the wrong info and thinks that hiback is by product of mixing rtg and xb. ;)

[jwhtan]

Page 2, My primum RTG by ChuckII go n check his rtg x xb = hbrtg picture! Go see n tell me what aro is that. :rolleyes:

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=127781&stc=1



this piece ???? wat so special abt this piece ???

very normal looking RTG

[Beerman]

He bought it as rtg x xb off spring!

[jwhtan]

He bought it as rtg x xb off spring!

well maybe although personally i doubt it ... u put a xback and a rtg ... there's a good chance u can get a offspring tat looks like a normal rtg ... it'll resemble any of its parents ... and tat's why i say HBRTG is not a result of this crossbreeding

[Geri]

errr ... i think u still dun see my point on the genetic part of this discussion and think tat as long as u put in an rtg and a xb, walaaa ... u get ur hiback rtg
According to mendelion genetics, there's about 20% chance they're normal rtg, 20% chance xback, about 50% chance hbrtg and 10%, something else.

[jwhtan]

According to mendelion genetics, there's about 20% chance they're normal rtg, 20% chance xback, about 50% chance hbrtg and 10%, something else.

hmmm .... tat means my understanding is all warped , lets see if i can find an online page on this statement

[jwhtan]

hmmm .... tat means my understanding is all warped , lets see if i can find an online page on this statement

ok here goes ... perhaps Geri can enlighten us on something else

http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/mcclean/plsc431/mendel/mendel1.htm

What is seen in the F1 generation? We always see only one of the two parental phenotypes in this generation. But the F1 possesses the information needed to produce both parental phenotypes in the following generation. The F2 generation always produced a 3:1 ratio where the dominant trait is present three times as often as the recessive trait. Mendel coined two terms to describe the relationship of the two phenotypes based on the F1 and F2 phenotypes,

Dominant and Recessive

[XRTG]

eh another diffrence again. :) this getting intresting leh. :)

[jwhtan]

http://arofanatics.com/members/jwhtan/showcasepics/image04.jpg


so anyone can try speculate wat this aro is ???

[Humongous]

did anyone release news tat their rtg crossbreed with xback ?

in reality no one single farm has done tat ... no one has said tat but just pure speculation on the part of hobbyist ...

lets say even if someone does tat and releases the news, bearing in mind the genetic factor, he wud hv got at least a two generation headstart to other competitors, ie easily 8years ... so how could it possibly tat other farms can catch up ?

John,

I extract from dreamfish... now how reliable is that??? Very confusing
MerLion Arowana- MerLion Golden http://www.dreamfish.com.sg/images/MerLion/merlion_golden.gifHigh Quality Asian Arowana bred from pure HighBack Golden bloodline. The HighBack Golden bloodline is a hybrid of Crossback Golden with Red Tail Golden (RTG). It is not a RTG
MerLion Gold en High Quality Asian Arowana bred from pure High Back Golden Bloodline.

The High Back Golden bloodline is a hybrid of Crossback Golden with Red Tail Golden. Unlike Crossback Golden, Red Tail Golden has its gold rim colourisation rise to the 4th level scale and will not reach the 5th level or the highest scale level. However, it usually had stronger gold colourisation than the Crossback Golden. Hence, it is natural to combine both the Golden Arowana to obtain another improved sub variety – High Back Golden.

With the inclusion of selected Crossback Golden bloodline, MerLion Gold is characterized by strong gold rim colourisation of the scale rise to the 5th or part of the highest scale level of the fish and with scale base colour consist either of Blue, Gold or Purple. The gill cover is bright gold colour. When the Crossback Golden bloodline prevails, the gold rim colourisation sometime cross from one side to the other. The mentioned characteristics make the growth potential of MerLion Gold very interesting and worth looking forward to.


Text and pics extracted from www.dreamfish.com.sg (http://www.dreamfish.com.sg)


Well I used to owned one piece of WH RTG that look like a G2 and even the bro who bought from me and later sold comment that it look more 1.5 as the dy goes by.

[jwhtan]

John,

I extract from dreamfish... now how reliable is that??? Very confusing
.


Text and pics extracted from www.dreamfish.com.sg (http://www.dreamfish.com.sg/)


Well I used to owned one piece of WH RTG that look like a G2 and even the bro who bought from me and later sold comment that it look more 1.5 as the dy goes by.

interesting extract from dreamfish ... so wat's this aro since its not a rtg ?

and this G2 lookalike RTG u mentioned, wat do u think makes it look like such ? for me there are two possiblities, one is the tag is fake and the other is that the blood line is not as pure as we wud hv like it to be and it so happens this was manifested in ur RTG ... the same 3:1 ratio we were talking abt in genetics

[Humongous]

interesting extract from dreamfish ... so wat's this aro since its not a rtg ?
They named it the
MerLion Gold en High Quality Asian Arowana bred from pure High Back Golden Bloodline http://arofanatics.com/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif
and this G2 lookalike RTG u mentioned, wat do u think makes it look like such ? for me there are two possiblities, one is the tag is fake and the other is that the blood line is not as pure as we wud hv like it to be and it so happens this was manifested in ur RTG ... the same 3:1 ratio we were talking abt in genetics

I bought the fish at a Yishun LFS. tagged and cert from Qianhu.http://arofanatics.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif So who insert a fake tag???http://arofanatics.com/forums/images/smilies/confused.gif http://arofanatics.com/forums/images/smilies/eek.gif Or maybe like what you suggested that the blood line is not as pure as we wud hv like it to be and it so happens this was manifested in my ex lousy RTG.

[jwhtan]

Or maybe like what you suggested that the blood line is not as pure as we wud hv like it to be and it so happens this was manifested in my ex lousy RTG.

u saw the pic i posted ... just before ur post ?
wat do u think is tat piece ...

[kimkuan]

pure breed or contaminated with recessive traits ???

take a look or if possible ID wat aro this is


http://arofanatics.com/members/jwhtan/showcasepics/image04.jpg

my frn got a comm of RTG just like this pcs!!! Tag and CERT (WHRTG) and brought from YCK!!!

Is this RTG or mixed blood?

[jwhtan]

my frn got a comm of RTG just like this pcs!!! Tag and CERT (WHRTG) and brought from YCK!!!

Is this RTG or mixed blood?

ur guess is tat this is a rtg ???

i'll like to see more speculation so i'll tell u by pm wat this aro is certified as

[Humongous]

u saw the pic i posted ... just before ur post ?
wat do u think is tat piece ...


Looklike a G2... same as my ex RTG. I noticed that there is a number of times I see such specimen in LFS maybe by batch??

do pm me the breed?

[jwhtan]

Looklike a G2... same as my ex RTG. I noticed that there is a number of times I see such specimen in LFS maybe by batch??

do pm me the breed?

its not by batch ... its just a different looking one from a same batch and the rest are all normal ...

[Humongous]

its not by batch ... its just a different looking one from a same batch and the rest are all normal ...

Then I do see quite a handful of it on QH Van.. I bought it during November 04 at 7"

[yayapapaya]

http://arofanatics.com/members/jwhtan/showcasepics/image04.jpg


so anyone can try speculate wat this aro is ???




XB. If put inside WFT, will look more shinning.

[jwhtan]

XB. If put inside WFT, will look more shinning.

so we now hv 3 different views from just 3 postings, from a XBack to a RTG to a Grade2 ... so how pure are our aros ???

[Humongous]

so we now hv 3 different views from just 3 postings, from a XBack to a RTG to a Grade2 ... so how pure are our aros ???

saw a few pieces that look like that y934's G2 comm tank.

going down to y934 now...

[derickyam]

http://arofanatics.com/members/jwhtan/showcasepics/image04.jpg


so anyone can try speculate wat this aro is ???

this pc looks similar to my ex-xb from rainbow name as "Super Crossback Malaysian Golden"...

they still have some in their showroom at Sungei Tengah..

[jwhtan]

this pc looks similar to my ex-xb from rainbow name as "Super Crossback Malaysian Golden"...

how did ur aro turn out ?

u mentioned ex so i suppose u sold it .... it'll hv been interesting to see how the aro turns out to be

[untouchables]

http://arofanatics.com/members/jwhtan/showcasepics/image04.jpg


so anyone can try speculate wat this aro is ???

my guess is that it has rtg and green genes. probably tagged and sold as rtg.

[derickyam]

how did ur aro turn out ?

u mentioned ex so i suppose u sold it .... it'll hv been interesting to see how the aro turns out to be

sori for the poor pic. it was taken in 24 May 05 at ard 14"

http://arofanatics.com/members/derickyam/pgon27062004innewtank/image13.jpg

[untouchables]

sori for the poor pic. it was taken in 24 May 05 at ard 14"

http://arofanatics.com/members/derickyam/pgon27062004innewtank/image13.jpg

actually this fella is not as bad as it looks. u can see the light golden colour on the rims and gill plate. perhaps the environment was not optimum or the fish is still young???

i think if put into very dark environment will look good!

[Aroboy II]

sori for the poor pic. it was taken in 24 May 05 at ard 14"

http://arofanatics.com/members/derickyam/pgon27062004innewtank/image13.jpg

Looks veri well fed!:p

[jwhtan]

my guess is that it has rtg and green genes. probably tagged and sold as rtg.

u think this shows up the green genes ???

would u think green instead of a xback may hv been in the equation for a higher shine for RTGs ??? this of cos is just a speculation and farms are probably not on such a programme anyway

[untouchables]

u think this shows up the green genes ???

would u think green instead of a xback may hv been in the equation for a higher shine for RTGs ??? this of cos is just a speculation and farms are probably not on such a programme anyway

nope, for the higher shine rtg, the shine is like gold aro shine, unlike shine from green.

hbrtg... my personal guess is that it is juz marketing gimmick. all are rtg and when they harvest, if the brooder showed 5-6th level crossing, then the farm will probably sell as hbrtg for higher profit. it is like higher grade rtg lor. that is what i would do as a farmer!!!

there may be farms who actually cross rtg and xback but i think they probably raise the fries and if it showed potential of xback, then sell as xback. if no potential, ie look like rtg, then sell as rtg or hbrtg. that is what i would do as a farmer!!!

lesson from this: if im a farmer, dun trust my cert labelling :p

[Geri]

honestly, how pure is pure? i don't even know how a pure red arowana should be....or how pure a xb should be.....i buy what i see and what i feel is nice....whether the genes manifested are good traits or recessive types....the fish will show you hehe....

Purity to hobbyists nowadays should not be as important, if yes, nobody will buy arowana like TY.
I agree with u.

[jwhtan]

I agree with u.

oh u r back ... can u pls enlighten us on this post on ur statement on mendel's genetics ..

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3183578&postcount=143

i'll be pleased to acknowledged and learned from where i've got it all wrong

[jwhtan]

nope, for the higher shine rtg, the shine is like gold aro shine, unlike shine from green.

hbrtg... my personal guess is that it is juz marketing gimmick. all are rtg and when they harvest, if the brooder showed 5-6th level crossing, then the farm will probably sell as hbrtg for higher profit. it is like higher grade rtg lor. that is what i would do as a farmer!!!

there may be farms who actually cross rtg and xback but i think they probably raise the fries and if it showed potential of xback, then sell as xback. if no potential, ie look like rtg, then sell as rtg or hbrtg. that is what i would do as a farmer!!!

lesson from this: if im a farmer, dun trust my cert labelling :p


hmmm ... wonder then how those aros tat manifests the green genes come from then ??? ;)

[Mewmender]

pure breed or contaminated with recessive traits ???

take a look or if possible ID wat aro this is


http://arofanatics.com/members/jwhtan/showcasepics/image04.jpg
my guess , Crossback Golden....

[aromatix]

Nobody's mentioned culling yet. In koi & goldfish breeding, a huge proportion of fry from each batch is culled and sold off as feeders or cheap fish. Only fry with "desired" characteristics are selected for sale or further breeding.
I suppose, you can't really sell Aro fry as feeders :p , so the other way is to sell the less desired ones off at whatever price the market can support.

Purity? - imho, very "rojak" in the market :eek: . One has to go back to the type specimen originally described by the author/discoverer of the species in the 1800s. And very sadly since the original biotope of the Asian Arowanas has largely been overfished or destroyed by logging/agriculture/development/ etc, we'll never know what the original Malayan XB, RTG or Indonesian Red was like :o .

[untouchables]

hmmm ... wonder then how those aros tat manifests the green genes come from then ??? ;)

2 possibilities that i can think of:
1. the parents are mixed, ie has green lineage somewhere. reputable farms probably wont do this. but you neber know where farms get their brooder stock and it may contain green lineage.
2. those green traits we see are not due to green genes but is juz a undesired recessive genes of the breed. juz happened that this trait looks similar to green. another example, rtg with spoon head. not supposed to have but is juz a recessive gene trait of rtg and does not mean rtg has red aro lineage.

cheers!

btw, can pm me what the cert says for the aro u posted? thanks!

[gtohow]

We've always been talking about crossbreeding of the different strains and many of us just put two and two together and arrive at some individual conclusions.

I thought it may help if I put together my understanding on breeding and perhaps others who have in depth studies can chip in and please, do correct me if I'm wrong.

What happens when u crossbreed ?

In the first parental cross, the F1 will always see only one of the two parental phenotypes in this generation. That is assuming u r able to pair different breeds together in arowanas, if u breed a Red with a XBack, you get in this first generation an aro that looks either like the Red or the XBack and not a combination of both. Or that if you breed a RTG with a XBack, you will get an aro tat looks like an RTG or a XBack and not one that is a combination.

However this F1 generation holds the all most important genetic composition of both parents tat is required to produce both parental phenotypes of the following generation. This F2 generation always produced a 3:1 ratio where the dominant trait is present 3 times as often as the recessive trait.

In order to henceforth produce a particular strain which breeds true, this pure line programme would then have to be picked from the F2 generation tat produces the dominant traits for future breeding.

Looking at this complicated process of a genetic programme and knowing the difficulties and the time required in a programme like this, do u still think the farmers will put rtgs and xbacks for a breeding programme to produce the so called hiback rtgs ???it sound to me more like 1.5 and grade 2....banjar red mix breeding... :cool:

[jwhtan]

Nobody's mentioned culling yet. In koi & goldfish breeding, a huge proportion of fry from each batch is culled and sold off as feeders or cheap fish. Only fry with "desired" characteristics are selected for sale or further breeding.
I suppose, you can't really sell Aro fry as feeders :p , so the other way is to sell the less desired ones off at whatever price the market can support.

Purity? - imho, very "rojak" in the market :eek: . One has to go back to the typre specimen originally described by the author/discoverer of the species in the 1800s. And very sadly since the original biotope of the Asian Arowanas has largely been overfished or destroyed by logging/agriculture/development/ etc, we'll never know what the original Malayan XB, RTG or Indonesian Red was like :o .

are u suggesting then that they are actually xbs ? the so called cannot make it xbs ? :o

[aromatix]

are u suggesting then that they are actually xbs ? the so called cannot make it xbs ? :o

possibly, one-off sales :rolleyes: ?
can't really say cos:
1. i've never seen the fishes myself
2. even if i did; i wouldn't know enuf to judge especially if the fishes are young. :confused:

[kagemaru]

possibly, one-off sales :rolleyes: ?
can't really say cos:
1. i've never seen the fishes myself
2. even if i did; i wouldn't know enuf to judge especially if the fishes are young. :confused:

there are also some XB at 4" only 4th level...how to cull these fries...unless they are genetically defect I would probably cull, if not I would just sell them off...these XB I would probably call them slow developers;)

On the other hand if farms is unable to tell gd or "lousy" xb at small size how's some farms classifying them into AAAs grade then?

[aromatix]

there are also some XB at 4" only 4th level...how to cull these fries...unless they are genetically defect I would probably cull, if not I would just sell them off...these XB I would probably call them slow developers;)

On the other hand if farms is unable to tell gd or "lousy" xb at small size how's some farms classifying them into AAAs grade then?

yeah, bro k, my point exactly ....
if the experts can't tell, mi even more clueless lah .... ;)

[jwhtan]

there are also some XB at 4" only 4th level...how to cull these fries...unless they are genetically defect I would probably cull, if not I would just sell them off...these XB I would probably call them slow developers;)

On the other hand if farms is unable to tell gd or "lousy" xb at small size how's some farms classifying them into AAAs grade then?

AAAs can be not as nice as AAs when they grow up too ... this grading is not a sure proof method ... it's one farm only and it's not widely accepted as well

[kagemaru]

yeah, bro k, my point exactly ....
if the experts can't tell, mi even more clueless lah .... ;)

yalor...last time I ask ah si one of his brooders - full pearlies but no 6th level --> he call them "RTG lor" but the shine damn nice:p

Maybe he kidding with me on the breed but I personally feels RTG should not have fullly developed pearlies - should be XB;)

[neon]

AAAs can be not as nice as AAs when they grow up too ... this grading is not a sure proof method ... it's one farm only and it's not widely accepted as well


this statement i am agreed with you. = )

for me,the grading for arowanas when they're still young is not fair.

some develop fast but some are late bloomers...

it's jz that those develop faster MIGHT have a better potential to be a better specimen than the other one ..

but..

can anyone be very sure that if given 2 arowana...eg:SR

fish A:6 inches with sligh orange color on the gill plate
fish B:6 inches with normal color on the gill plate..

i am sure most people would choose fish A but anybody can guarantee that fish A would be nicer compared to fish B in 5 years time ??

p/s:i am sorry for being off-topic =/

[neon]

http://arofanatics.com/members/jwhtan/showcasepics/image04.jpg


so anyone can try speculate wat this aro is ???


an golden crossback.just my speculation.

[jwhtan]

my guess , Crossback Golden....


an golden crossback.just my speculation.

how wud u rate this fish ?

[neon]

We've always been talking about crossbreeding of the different strains and many of us just put two and two together and arrive at some individual conclusions.

Looking at this complicated process of a genetic programme and knowing the difficulties and the time required in a programme like this, do u still think the farmers will put rtgs and xbacks for a breeding programme to produce the so called hiback rtgs ???

first of all,thanks to bro jwhtan for coming up with such a interesting discussion.

personally,i dont think that farms would put rtgs and xbacks for bredding program.i found it doesnt make sense in business sense.

if they can (we assume they can) mixed breed rtgs and x backs... why not they jz use x back and breed wit another x back ?

x back+ x back=x back >(higher value than) x back + rtg = unknown breed

some bros here mentioned that if one competitor comes out with another so called "better types of rtgs",other farms would be pressured to comes out with something that is at least same grade or has higher grades. BUT..the quetion here is....how long do they need in order to be competitive enough?

as for the purity of asians arowana.i feel that it is ALMOST impossible to buy any pure breed arowana in lfs.there are too many strains and when they mixed it..it will no longer become pure. =/

jz my 2 cents worth of opinions. correct me if i am wrong.

lastly,thanks for reading= )

[neon]

how wud u rate this fish ?

for some personal reasons.i dont rate arowanas = )

but if you ask me...i think this arowana deserve 6.5/10 for me.any other pics of the same arowana?

by the way,can u pm me the real answer?

[jwhtan]

for some personal reasons.i dont rate arowanas = )

but if you ask me...i think this arowana deserve 6.5/10 for me.any other pics of the same arowana?

by the way,can u pm me the real answer?

that's a pretty high rating for a fish tat shows such a strong greenish core and a fish tat some have ID as a grade 2 ...

well someone told me this is a " cannot make it " XB, so I asked him ... does this fish then qualify as a HGRTG or a HBRTG ? Will he buy it as a HGRTG ???

the point is if an aro " cannot make it " , then it cannot make it in all classes ... if its not nice as a XB, then even if u say its a RTG, its still not nice ... doesn't mean tat if its not nice as a XB and then you rename it to RTG, it becomes nice .... tat makes no sense to me

[neon]

that's a pretty high rating for a fish tat shows such a strong greenish core and a fish tat some have ID as a grade 2 ...

well someone told me this is a " cannot make it " XB, so I asked him ... does this fish then qualify as a HGRTG or a HBRTG ? Will he buy it as a HGRTG ???

the point is if an aro " cannot make it " , then it cannot make it in all classes ... if its not nice as a XB, then even if u say its a RTG, its still not nice ... doesn't mean tat if its not nice as a XB and then you rename it to RTG, it becomes nice .... tat makes no sense to me

i hate to rate arowanas =P

for me,rtg is rtg .... x back is x back ....

clear and simple names.i believe this is what most hobbyist wants.
any idea which farm this x back is from???seems familiar..

by the way,this aro can never be G2 red.i am very sure of it.

[Mewmender]

how wud u rate this fish ?
on a scale of 10, i place this at around 4/10?

i have to agree with bro neon, this fish is not a grade 2 .

[Geri]

that's a pretty high rating for a fish tat shows such a strong greenish core and a fish tat some have ID as a grade 2 ...

well someone told me this is a " cannot make it " XB, so I asked him ... does this fish then qualify as a HGRTG or a HBRTG ? Will he buy it as a HGRTG ???

the point is if an aro " cannot make it " , then it cannot make it in all classes ... if its not nice as a XB, then even if u say its a RTG, its still not nice ... doesn't mean tat if its not nice as a XB and then you rename it to RTG, it becomes nice .... tat makes no sense to me
There is no so call cannot make it "xb". If you will paiding the price of the xb & after 5 years the xb turn out to be a rtg would u go n ask for refund? As for the so call Hbrtg, i suppose the breeder might accidently mix xb with rtg due to human error.

[Mewmender]

As for the so call Hbrtg, i suppose the breeder might accidently mix xb with rtg due to human error.
human error? so u mean all breeders all did experience this human error at abt the same period of time? how careless of them ....
:confused:

[jwhtan]

There is no so call cannot make it "xb". If you will paiding the price of the xb & after 5 years the xb turn out to be a rtg would u go n ask for refund? As for the so call Hbrtg, i suppose the breeder might accidently mix xb with rtg due to human error.

hey ... u still haven't tell me where my genetic understanding goes wrong ... can u please enlighten all of us

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3183557&postcount=141

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3183578&postcount=143

[jwhtan]

There is no so call cannot make it "xb". If you will paiding the price of the xb & after 5 years the xb turn out to be a rtg would u go n ask for refund? As for the so call Hbrtg, i suppose the breeder might accidently mix xb with rtg due to human error.

5 years ??? well wat's ur take on tat aro then ??? tat its a XB thru and thru ???

[kenboy08]

I remember this fish.
The owner finally got it exchanged for a better looking crossback. :D

[jwhtan]

I remember this fish.
The owner finally got it exchanged for a better looking crossback. :D

dun go to the details of the farm ... lets just take this as a case study

[kenboy08]

dun go to the details of the farm ... lets just take this as a case study

Sometimes, aros can turn out different whatever the bloodline.
The "albino" whites must have been spawned out by normal looking aro parents, so why not ugly looking specimens of the parent.
Although in this case, I personally believe, the fish was tagged wrongly. :D

[kentfon]

5 years ??? well wat's ur take on tat aro then ??? tat its a XB thru and thru ???

Hi John

Would like to put forward this question :

U have been talking about genes and genetic factor then may i ask how pure is the F0 or F1's commonly known in the ponds of breeding farms??
Where in the first place these F1's come from u may say from old strains then how pure are the old strains

Therefore i feel that no matter how pure there will be a black sheep in one of these broodings black sheep as in it shows it's previous mix bloodline if u recall sometime back a red that didn't make it as a pure breed red and your pic u posted.... if u say wat it is supposed to be then up the line somewhere there is a mix bloodline so that is wat u'll get to see a or 2 black sheeps hehehe

Sori just my point of view don't zapped me hor :D

[jwhtan]

Sometimes, aros can turn out different whatever the bloodline.
The "albino" whites must have been spawned out by normal looking aro parents, so why not ugly looking specimens of the parent.
Although in this case, I personally believe, the fish was tagged wrongly. :D

i wud think differently .... i think its the same case like an albino ... tat is the recessive traits manifested itself in the piece ... anyway, this piece was one of 6 in a same batch of fries ... the other 5 were all normal looking .. so i'm quite positive its not a case of human error

[jwhtan]

Hi John

Would like to put forward this question :

U have been talking about genes and genetic factor then may i ask how pure is the F0 or F1's commonly known in the ponds of breeding farms??
Where in the first place these F1's come from u may say from old strains then how pure are the old strains

Therefore i feel that no matter how pure there will be a black sheep in one of these broodings black sheep as in it shows it's previous mix bloodline if u recall sometime back a red that didn't make it as a pure breed red and your pic u posted.... if u say wat it is supposed to be then up the line somewhere there is a mix bloodline so that is wat u'll get to see a or 2 black sheeps hehehe

Sori just my point of view don't zapped me hor :D

I agree purity is the question but tat there's no intended programme to cultivate this HBRTG breed

Sorry wat's this additional take on zapping about ? have i ever zapped someone for disagreeing online ?

[kentfon]

I agree purity is the question but tat there's no intended programme to cultivate this HBRTG breed

Sorry wat's this additional take on zapping about ? have i ever zapped someone for disagreeing online ?

no la hahaha just afraid someone zapped me hahaha

Back to the gene thinky

I would therefore totally disagree that a rtg x rtg would give a pure strain of rtg
likewise for crossbacks that's why u would sometimes find uncrossed adult crossbacks

Reds likewise too sometimes u may end up with a neither 1.5 or red

hope i'm right about that

Cheers!

[neon]

msg deleted

[jwhtan]

no la hahaha just afraid someone zapped me hahaha

Back to the gene thinky

I would therefore totally disagree that a rtg x rtg would give a pure strain of rtg
likewise for crossbacks that's why u would sometimes find uncrossed adult crossbacks

Reds likewise too sometimes u may end up with a neither 1.5 or red

hope i'm right about that

Cheers!

this pure strain thing I think I've stated my stand a few times .... and tat is we've got to accept tat the aros we all have now are less than pure ...

for uncrossed XBacks, is tat due to it being not pure ? or its a case where it has not crossed, tat again is subjective ... not crossed doesn't mean wun cross ....

and for reds, anything tat is lesser than grade1 is now loosely termed as 1.5 red , whether they are those found at Banjar or whether they were a result of lesser aros crossbreeding

[kentfon]

this pure strain thing I think I've stated my stand a few times .... and tat is we've got to accept tat the aros we all have now are less than pure ...

for uncrossed XBacks, is tat due to it being not pure ? or its a case where it has not crossed, tat again is subjective ... not crossed doesn't mean wun cross ....

and for reds, anything tat is lesser than grade1 is now loosely termed as 1.5 red , whether they are those found at Banjar or whether they were a result of lesser aros crossbreeding

I agree!

back to yr topic i like to summaris, you asked:
In the first parental cross, the F1 will always see only one of the two parental phenotypes in this generation. That is assuming u r able to pair different breeds together in arowanas, if u breed a Red with a XBack, you get in this first generation an aro that looks either like the Red or the XBack and not a combination of both. Or that if you breed a RTG with a XBack, you will get an aro tat looks like an RTG or a XBack and not one that is a combination.

My answer to this : Veri surprise that most of the time this factor applies very close to the gold series why? i personnally feel that golden genes are stronger as for red with x-backs veri rare i see it's offsprings turning to a true red upon adulthood rather they exibit yellowish tinge of matted gold more matted than the xbacks but during it's growing stages many wonderful colouration appears at the cores like e.g purple,turquoise green,blue and sometimes tinge of pink of course this fish so call Tonyang or red splendor or rose gold does possess the genes of the red through it's red tail and finages which again some may not
I maybe wrong if i'm pls correct me
However this F1 generation holds the all most important genetic composition of both parents tat is required to produce both parental phenotypes of the following generation. This F2 generation always produced a 3:1 ratio where the dominant trait is present 3 times as often as the recessive trait

My answer i wouldn't agree that it holds the important genetic composition of both the fish
again i feel that the gold genes will still dominate but as i explain previously a few "Black sheep" will be born once in a while

This is just my point of view from my humble experiences :D

In order to henceforth produce a particular strain which breeds true, this pure line programme would then have to be picked from the F2 generation tat produces the dominant traits for future breeding.

My answer: will never be all true breeds of F3

Cheers!

[jpn]

that's a pretty high rating for a fish tat shows such a strong greenish core and a fish tat some have ID as a grade 2 ...

well someone told me this is a " cannot make it " XB, so I asked him ... does this fish then qualify as a HGRTG or a HBRTG ? Will he buy it as a HGRTG ???

the point is if an aro " cannot make it " , then it cannot make it in all classes ... if its not nice as a XB, then even if u say its a RTG, its still not nice ... doesn't mean tat if its not nice as a XB and then you rename it to RTG, it becomes nice .... tat makes no sense to me
Paying $1000+++ for a fish that look like otherwise is not = to paying $400 for the same fish. Expectation different le, cannot compare this way. A simple question like would u pay a crossback price for a can make it RTG that looks abit like crossback can show this comparision is biased.

[jwhtan]

I agree!

back to yr topic i like to summaris, you asked:
In the first parental cross, the F1 will always see only one of the two parental phenotypes in this generation. That is assuming u r able to pair different breeds together in arowanas, if u breed a Red with a XBack, you get in this first generation an aro that looks either like the Red or the XBack and not a combination of both. Or that if you breed a RTG with a XBack, you will get an aro tat looks like an RTG or a XBack and not one that is a combination.

My answer to this : Veri surprise that most of the time this factor applies very close to the gold series why? i personnally feel that golden genes are stronger as for red with x-backs veri rare i see it's offsprings turning to a true red upon adulthood rather they exibit yellowish tinge of matted gold more matted than the xbacks but during it's growing stages many wonderful colouration appears at the cores like e.g purple,turquoise green,blue and sometimes tinge of pink of course this fish so call Tonyang or red splendor or rose gold does possess the genes of the red through it's red tail and finages which again some may not
I maybe wrong if i'm pls correct me
However this F1 generation holds the all most important genetic composition of both parents tat is required to produce both parental phenotypes of the following generation. This F2 generation always produced a 3:1 ratio where the dominant trait is present 3 times as often as the recessive trait

My answer i wouldn't agree that it holds the important genetic composition of both the fish
again i feel that the gold genes will still dominate but as i explain previously a few "Black sheep" will be born once in a while

This is just my point of view from my humble experiences :D

In order to henceforth produce a particular strain which breeds true, this pure line programme would then have to be picked from the F2 generation tat produces the dominant traits for future breeding.

My answer: will never be all true breeds of F3

Cheers!

those statements i posted are all genetic laws based on mendelian genetics ... it'll take another set of hypothesis proven to become law to overthrow those statements ... they are not my experience or my statements but genetic laws of hereditary and segregation

I think maybe I give u a link on these genetics studies and laws so tat perhaps u can understand a little more on where I'm coming from

http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/mcclean/plsc431/mendel/mendel1.htm

[jwhtan]

Paying $1000+++ for a fish that look like that is not = to paying $400 for the same fish. Expectation different le, cannot compare this way. A simple question like would u pay a crossback price for a can make it RTG that looks abit like crossback can show this comparision is biased.

sorry ur posting is beyond me ... i dun understand wat u r trying to put across :o

[jpn]

sorry ur posting is beyond me ... i dun understand wat u r trying to put across :o
I edited, hope u can understand better now. I accidentally missed out something but by reading my 2nd half i think can understand easily unless......
I have nothing against u just find sometimes ur arguement can be very biased. :p Soemtimes very logical however this statement u made failed to convince me.
U pay $1500 for a Xback that look like very good grade RTG, of coz u say that xback cannot make it as crossback. Why pay more for a xback when both rtg and crossbacks are golden in color? For the high shine? Intensity of gold? But if u pay a RTG price for a RTG that looks like crossback??

[kentfon]

those statements i posted are all genetic laws based on mendelian genetics ... it'll take another set of hypothesis proven to become law to overthrow those statements ... they are not my experience or my statements but genetic laws of hereditary and segregation

I think maybe I give u a link on these genetics studies and laws so tat perhaps u can understand a little more on where I'm coming from

http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/mcclean/plsc431/mendel/mendel1.htm

Thanks bro for enlightening me ;) veri informative link thanks again

One doubt i'm amiss

Seems to me yr link refer to plants which i find yes they are very true about the genes in plants but from my point of view aros don't seem to exibit the genes like plants not exactly the same after the F2 breed and so on and so forth
What's your view point :confused: about this??

Cheers!
Ken

[Mewmender]

U pay $1500 for a Xback that look like very good grade RTG, of coz u say that xback cannot make it as crossback. Why pay more for a xback when both rtg and crossbacks are golden in color? For the high shine? Intensity of gold? But if u pay a RTG price for a RTG that looks like crossback??
if I have a cannot make it XB that I then retag it as a RTG...does it make me feel better? obviously not, at the end of the day a XB is a XB and a rtg is a rtg, saying that its a "better quality" strain of a different strain of aro
doesnt change the fact that the aro cannot make it .....

its more like a way to "console" ourselves psychologically.... but it doesnt change the fact the aro is still a cannot make it XB

[kentfon]

if I have a cannot make it XB that I then retag it as a RTG...does it make me feel better? obviously not, at the end of the day a XB is a XB and a rtg is a rtg, saying that its a "better quality" strain of a different strain of aro
doesnt change the fact that the aro cannot make it .....

its more like a way to "console" ourselves psychologically.... but it doesnt change the fact the aro is still a cannot make it XB

bro

sori for my ignorance and stupidity just wondering is there such a thing as "cannot make it wat wat" :confused: :confused:

wondering....wondering veri confused leh

[Fire87]

hmmm ... wonder then how those aros tat manifests the green genes come from then ??? ;)

from 1.5s? just a wild guess...

[kagemaru]

bro

sori for my ignorance and stupidity just wondering is there such a thing as "cannot make it wat wat" :confused: :confused:

wondering....wondering veri confused leh

CMI is used when ppl see XB with less than 5th level shine...similar to reds with light yellow coloration and most of these owners will want to dump these aros:(

Pretty sad though...many still have a great future IMO but perhaps their genes is recessive so tats why their outlook may be inferior...

Other aros fast pick up speed but end result will it be better?...this is one part which many querries...Sumber reds take how long?...Munjul reds take how long to mature? ending color differs by wat degree?...worth the extra dough or not really depends on the consumer perceptions:p

[kentfon]

CMI is used when ppl see XB with less than 5th level shine...similar to reds with light yellow coloration and most of these owners will want to dump these aros:(

Pretty sad though...many still have a great future IMO but perhaps their genes is recessive so tats why their outlook may be inferior...

Other aros fast pick up speed but end result will it be better?...this is one part which many querries...Sumber reds take how long?...Munjul reds take how long to mature? ending color differs by wat degree?...worth the extra dough or not really depends on the consumer perceptions:p

Veri well said..pt noted every living thing change

Have u heard of the phrase " nue da seh ba pian" maybe fish also like tat young very sweet and beautiful grown adult wau..buay quah :p :p

[kagemaru]

Veri well said..pt noted every living thing change

Have u heard of the phrase " nue da seh ba pian" maybe fish also like tat young very sweet and beautiful grown adult wau..buay quah :p :p

I heard b4 one phrase: " Small small looks nice, grow up KNS":D

[jpn]

if I have a cannot make it XB that I then retag it as a RTG...does it make me feel better? obviously not, at the end of the day a XB is a XB and a rtg is a rtg, saying that its a "better quality" strain of a different strain of aro
doesnt change the fact that the aro cannot make it .....

its more like a way to "console" ourselves psychologically.... but it doesnt change the fact the aro is still a cannot make it XB

U totally change the whole idea by not reading carefully or perhaps i need to go back to school to brush up my english. Listen carefully, I'm assuming that IF that arowana shown in the picture is now an RTG, no retagging needed le,just imagination. IF that arowana u see cant make it as a crossback,would it make it as a RTG? If now that aro is revealed to be a RTG and taged,certified RTG???? Would u still say it cannot make it? Not retag to make u feel better la. But again, if u paid a $1200 for that aro ,what would u feel??
Imagine now, u are getting that same arowana for $500, what would u feel again?
AGain,that arowana is healthy,no defects, UNKNOWN species (maybe known to some pple) What makes u think it cannot make it??? How to define it cannot make it?
Side track abit, Now this cannot make it arowana, taged as xback, put on sale for $600, how many pple willing to buy? (nothing got to xdo with the above assumption.)

[jwhtan]

I edited, hope u can understand better now. I accidentally missed out something but by reading my 2nd half i think can understand easily unless......
I have nothing against u just find sometimes ur arguement can be very biased. :p Soemtimes very logical however this statement u made failed to convince me.
U pay $1500 for a Xback that look like very good grade RTG, of coz u say that xback cannot make it as crossback. Why pay more for a xback when both rtg and crossbacks are golden in color? For the high shine? Intensity of gold? But if u pay a RTG price for a RTG that looks like crossback??

I'm sorry but the accusation of biaseness is returned back to u lock, stock and barrel ... just because u dun agree with my statement u say I'm biase ??

lets look at the issue at hand instead of personal attacks like bias etc ... wat i'm saying is tat the piece is a faulty piece ... it clearly shows the recessive traits of a green lineage somewhere along the line ... it's manifest the green traits and thus cannot make it as a XB , neither can it make it as a RTG , doesn't matter wat price is being paid .. doesn't matter what it is tagged as ... it makes no difference ... its a faulty piece and the farm has actually been gracious enough to exchange another piece ... no questions asked by the farm , just one look was enough

[shiokmc]

I heard b4 one phrase: " Small small looks nice, grow up KNS":D
waaahaahaaa..well said !! well said !!!

[jwhtan]

Thanks bro for enlightening me ;) veri informative link thanks again

One doubt i'm amiss

Seems to me yr link refer to plants which i find yes they are very true about the genes in plants but from my point of view aros don't seem to exibit the genes like plants not exactly the same after the F2 breed and so on and so forth
What's your view point :confused: about this??

Cheers!
Ken

it doesn't matter ... those are the laws of genetics ... all universally accepted by scientists ... and genetic authorities alike ... and unless a new research team can debunked the law , those findings stand in science

[Vetduck]

those statements i posted are all genetic laws based on mendelian genetics ... it'll take another set of hypothesis proven to become law to overthrow those statements ... they are not my experience or my statements but genetic laws of hereditary and segregation

I think maybe I give u a link on these genetics studies and laws so tat perhaps u can understand a little more on where I'm coming from

http://www.ndsu.nodak.edu/instruct/mcclean/plsc431/mendel/mendel1.htm

Wow took me some time to read thru all that!

John, you stated correctly about Mendelian genetics...however there is more to Mendel's theories. F1 would turn out looking like one or the other parent only if the gene for phenotypic expression is on a single allele(the dominant one) & if there is no codominance.

Now if there is codominance, this means that both alleles contribute to the phenotype of the heterozygote, then you may end up in a situation where you have F1 exhibiting characteristics of a mixture of both parents.

There is also the subject of incomplete dominance. When a gene has both dominant & recessive alleles, incomplete dominance can occur. In this case the phenotype is determined by the expression of both the dominant & recessive alleles. Hence F1 can possess a phenotype different from both parents. To draw on an example, a crossback & red cross could result in F1 looking neither completely crossback nor red. They look a little of both, hence TY. We don't know if the expression of colours on aros is one of incomplete dominance. I won't be surprise the colouration is determined by more that a single allele with complete dominance.

What I'm trying to get at is, you have been discussing the issue of purity & phenotypic expression based on only the first law of mendelian genetics. There another variations to the law of genetics to consider. I don't think aros only follow Mendels first law, cos if they do they'll look no more appealling than fruit flies.

Based on the possibility of incomplete dominance & multiple alleles to determine a phenotype, then I would say it is possible for a crossback & rtg cross to get a hbrtg.

As to why some people buy a rtg to turns out looking like a xback, it could be down to human error. Perhaps accidental mixing of rtg & xback fries. Even with farmer's experience to separate the mixed fries, some xbacks might get passed off as rtg & tagged as rtg. Possible scenario?

Mendel's work give us the basics of genetics. With the laws of segregation(1st law) & independent assortment(2nd law), it helps us predict the phenotype of the offspring. However there are many other factors that would influence the eventual outcome of the genotype & phenotype of the offspring. Unless someone eventually DNA type the entire aro genome, we would not know for sure how the alleles on the genes interact to give the aros their characteristic. So John I don't think you can state so surely that the hbrtg is not the result of xback x rtg.

Time to sleep...good nite...zzz

[shiokmc]

Based on the possibility of incomplete dominance & multiple alleles to determine a phenotype, then I would say it is possible for a crossback & rtg cross to get a hbrtg.


Wow took me some time to read thru all that! [vetduCk + jwhtan ]

mmmmmmmmm..... anuther side of the 'CoiN' .......... great stories n theories .... keep them cummmin !

[Vetduck]

it doesn't matter ... those are the laws of genetics ... all universally accepted by scientists ... and genetic authorities alike ... and unless a new research team can debunked the law , those findings stand in science

John I agree that the laws of genetics is universally accepted. However I think you are basing your argument on the assumption that the phenotype of the F1 determined by single dominant alleles. It has not been proven to be the case yet. Hence to a certain extend I tend to agree with kentfon. Maybe Alex might be a better person to answer this question.

[Vetduck]

Wow took me some time to read thru all that! [vetduCk + jwhtan ]

mmmmmmmmm..... anuther side of the 'CoiN' .......... great stories n theories .... keep them cummmin !

Thanks for summarising. :D

[9090]

wat I'm saying is tat if u put a xback and a rtg to breed, u dun get a hbrtg

in this first generation if they breed, wat happens is tat in genetic theory this generation (we call F1) will look either like a xback or a rtg ...

4th level + 6th level does not add up to 5th level for the offsprings

Can follow AVA style = 4th level/5th level/6 level still GOLD arowana.
Not all arowana in Singapore are from local breeding farm...then why must take a Xback & a rtg to breed in order to get a HBRTG???

Farm just take HBRTG & HBRTG to breed then F1/F2/F3 will still be HBRTG right? Whats make us think farms must X-breed.

Example like luohan fish at first only few farms have then lokang also have...? Discus, guppies & bettas? Now got thousands of species?

[jpn]

I'm sorry but the accusation of biaseness is returned back to u lock, stock and barrel ... just because u dun agree with my statement u say I'm biase ??

lets look at the issue at hand instead of personal attacks like bias etc ... wat i'm saying is tat the piece is a faulty piece ... it clearly shows the recessive traits of a green lineage somewhere along the line ... it's manifest the green traits and thus cannot make it as a XB , neither can it make it as a RTG , doesn't matter wat price is being paid .. doesn't matter what it is tagged as ... it makes no difference ... its a faulty piece and the farm has actually been gracious enough to exchange another piece ... no questions asked by the farm , just one look was enough
Since u think its a personal attack, then i have nothing much to add. I sincerely apologised to u. I don't mean anything personal. Hope u are not too offended. i have my beliefs, u have urs, we both stand on different point of views. I think discussions are what constitute to the survival of this forum. I meant the statement was bias because u didn't compare the oppsite. I'm sure if anybody bought a rtg which looks like a xback wouldn't be complaining though.
Anyway just to let u know how i feel ( not sure how the others are feeling) I'm getting more n more confused, I'm just curious to find out how we get hibacks. Now i have tons of questions ringing in my head.

[jpn]

Can follow AVA style = 4th level/5th level/6 level still GOLD arowana.
Not all arowana in Singapore are from local breeding farm...then why must take a Xback & a rtg to breed in order to get a HBRTG???

Farm just take HBRTG & HBRTG to breed then F1/F2/F3 will still be HBRTG right? Whats make us think farms must X-breed.

Example like luohan fish at first only few farms have then lokang also have...? Discus, guppies & bettas? Now got thousands of species?
How do they get the first HBRTG? Just curious? :p Means selective breeding?

[XiaoXian2]

We can all just assume and never know.. :confused:

[Mewmender]

U totally change the whole idea by not reading carefully or perhaps i need to go back to school to brush up my english. Listen carefully, I'm assuming that IF that arowana shown in the picture is now an RTG, no retagging needed le,just imagination. IF that arowana u see cant make it as a crossback,would it make it as a RTG? If now that aro is revealed to be a RTG and taged,certified RTG???? Would u still say it cannot make it? Not retag to make u feel better la. But again, if u paid a $1200 for that aro ,what would u feel??
Imagine now, u are getting that same arowana for $500, what would u feel again?
AGain,that arowana is healthy,no defects, UNKNOWN species (maybe known to some pple) What makes u think it cannot make it??? How to define it cannot make it?
Side track abit, Now this cannot make it arowana, taged as xback, put on sale for $600, how many pple willing to buy? (nothing got to xdo with the above assumption.)
oh sorry that i have misread your question.. :o
if that aro was tagged as a RTG, its still a cannot make it one,
the shine is in a mess, the green core is strong,and the scale isnt neat and is absolutely no sign of any rims at all, scales are near translucent.
even if its a grade 2 , its still a cannot make it one IMHO

[kagemaru]

Wow took me some time to read thru all that!

John, you stated correctly about Mendelian genetics...however there is more to Mendel's theories. F1 would turn out looking like one or the other parent only if the gene for phenotypic expression is on a single allele(the dominant one) & if there is no codominance.

Now if there is codominance, this means that both alleles contribute to the phenotype of the heterozygote, then you may end up in a situation where you have F1 exhibiting characteristics of a mixture of both parents.

There is also the subject of incomplete dominance. When a gene has both dominant & recessive alleles, incomplete dominance can occur. In this case the phenotype is determined by the expression of both the dominant & recessive alleles. Hence F1 can possess a phenotype different from both parents. To draw on an example, a crossback & red cross could result in F1 looking neither completely crossback nor red. They look a little of both, hence TY. We don't know if the expression of colours on aros is one of incomplete dominance. I won't be surprise the colouration is determined by more that a single allele with complete dominance.

What I'm trying to get at is, you have been discussing the issue of purity & phenotypic expression based on only the first law of mendelian genetics. There another variations to the law of genetics to consider. I don't think aros only follow Mendels first law, cos if they do they'll look no more appealling than fruit flies.

Based on the possibility of incomplete dominance & multiple alleles to determine a phenotype, then I would say it is possible for a crossback & rtg cross to get a hbrtg.

As to why some people buy a rtg to turns out looking like a xback, it could be down to human error. Perhaps accidental mixing of rtg & xback fries. Even with farmer's experience to separate the mixed fries, some xbacks might get passed off as rtg & tagged as rtg. Possible scenario?

Mendel's work give us the basics of genetics. With the laws of segregation(1st law) & independent assortment(2nd law), it helps us predict the phenotype of the offspring. However there are many other factors that would influence the eventual outcome of the genotype & phenotype of the offspring. Unless someone eventually DNA type the entire aro genome, we would not know for sure how the alleles on the genes interact to give the aros their characteristic. So John I don't think you can state so surely that the hbrtg is not the result of xback x rtg.

Time to sleep...good nite...zzz

thks for the explanation Doc, I would also feel tat law of independent assortment applies more aptly to the arowanas genetics...due to the complexity of the appearance within a same brood, its sometimes difficult to pinpoint a specific traits from the parents...the probability and chance factor is more "reasonable" in a way:p

The origin of Hibacks may not be able to trace directly probably because:
1. The way of mixing is not properly documented
2. Brooders that were bought by farms were already tainted with other genetics when they were placed into the various ponds
3. Quality control and seggregation of the various fries were not strictly documented or controlled - most of it is still manually done by the owner or some trusted person who uses his personal judgement to grade those aros

[Vetduck]

How do they get the first HBRTG? Just curious? :p Means selective breeding?

Maybe is by chance...maybe delibrate mixing. Not enough xbacks to breed. Throw all rtg & crossbacks together. If they breed, whether they are worth more of less doesn't matter, it's still money to the farmer. By selling it as hbrtg if it turns out like a rtg then reputation won't be tarnished. If turns out xback, then everyone will think the farm produces very good rtg.

Another scenario is the xbacks that a farmers feels that is not crossing or not as good & doesn't want to add to his xback breeding stock gets added to the rtg breeding stock. One advantage is the 'inferior' xbacks don't contaminate his xback breeding stocks, but would improve his rtg stocks. Win win situation. I guess we'll never know the truth, but if we try to put ourselves in their shoes, we might be able to guess...

[kimkuan]

Maybe is by chance...maybe delibrate mixing. Not enough xbacks to breed. Throw all rtg & crossbacks together. If they breed, whether they are worth more of less doesn't matter, it's still money to the farmer. By selling it as hbrtg if it turns out like a rtg then reputation won't be tarnished. If turns out xback, then everyone will think the farm produces very good rtg.

Another scenario is the xbacks that a farmers feels that is not crossing or not as good & doesn't want to add to his xback breeding stock gets added to the rtg breeding stock. One advantage is the 'inferior' xbacks don't contaminate his xback breeding stocks, but would improve his rtg stocks. Win win situation. I guess we'll never know the truth, but if we try to put ourselves in their shoes, we might be able to guess...
This make sense to me....:D:D:D

[PeeCeeBee]

Maybe is by chance...maybe delibrate mixing. Not enough xbacks to breed. Throw all rtg & crossbacks together. If they breed, whether they are worth more of less doesn't matter, it's still money to the farmer. By selling it as hbrtg if it turns out like a rtg then reputation won't be tarnished. If turns out xback, then everyone will think the farm produces very good rtg.

Another scenario is the xbacks that a farmers feels that is not crossing or not as good & doesn't want to add to his xback breeding stock gets added to the rtg breeding stock. One advantage is the 'inferior' xbacks don't contaminate his xback breeding stocks, but would improve his rtg stocks. Win win situation. I guess we'll never know the truth, but if we try to put ourselves in their shoes, we might be able to guess...

wow Simon, you are as practical as me .... let's go rob the bank and start a farm hehehe.

[aromatix]

To Arofans who are still following this ....

Bro John
I think I've found the source of origin for HBRTG = RTG x XB.
I wuz at C328 and there it was right before my very eyes scribbled in marker pen on the tank :

Red Tail Gold X Cross Back Gold
(cross breed)
$480

Aunty wuz too busy with lunch time crowd so din ask if that's a claim by the farm or her own marketing strategy ;)

[jpn]

To Arofans who are still following this ....

Bro John
I think I've found the source of origin for HBRTG = RTG x XB.
I wuz at C328 and there it was right before my very eyes scribbled in marker pen on the tank :

Red Tail Gold X Cross Back Gold
(cross breed)
$480

Aunty wuz too busy with lunch time crowd so din ask if that's a claim by the farm or her own marketing strategy ;)
Codition very bad those aros, 1 piece dying liao. :(

[shiokmc]

Can follow AVA style = 4th level/5th level/6 level still GOLD arowana.
Not all arowana in Singapore are from local breeding farm...then why must take a Xback & a rtg to breed in order to get a HBRTG???

Farm just take HBRTG & HBRTG to breed then F1/F2/F3 will still be HBRTG right? Whats make us think farms must X-breed.

Example like luohan fish at first only few farms have then lokang also have...? Discus, guppies & bettas? Now got thousands of species?
erm ..... i doubt LH n the other freshwater species are as easy to understand as the Asian Dragon Fish .........

[jwhtan]

Wow took me some time to read thru all that!

John, you stated correctly about Mendelian genetics...however there is more to Mendel's theories. F1 would turn out looking like one or the other parent only if the gene for phenotypic expression is on a single allele(the dominant one) & if there is no codominance.

So John I don't think you can state so surely that the hbrtg is not the result of xback x rtg.



Simon, if u read closely what I'm putting across, I didn't say there's no possibility tat the HBRTG is a result of xback and rtg ....

I put across an aspect of mendelian genetics to actually show how complicated this part of science can be ... it can be dominant or it can be codominant like wat u hv expressed ... and thus due to this uncertainty, farms do not embarked on this programme to actually breed this strain of a HBRTG. I hv emphasise the point tat we hv to accept tat our aros today are less than pure ... no one knows how the ancestral line was mixed but certainly because of the uncertainty in genetics, and the economic reasons why it dun make sense to put them together, there's no specific breeding programme to churn out a HBRTG based on a XB and a RTG cross.

I agree there's a likelihood of chance breeding, somewhere along the ancestral line, it could be with a XBack, it could even be with a green, red or anything other breed tat may change the shine level but as much as we could not 100% say there's no xback genes, likewise we cannot say its a result of a XB/RTG mix at all, certainly not a result of a specific breeding programme to create this new strain

[jwhtan]

To Arofans who are still following this ....

Bro John
I think I've found the source of origin for HBRTG = RTG x XB.
I wuz at C328 and there it was right before my very eyes scribbled in marker pen on the tank :

Red Tail Gold X Cross Back Gold
(cross breed)
$480

Aunty wuz too busy with lunch time crowd so din ask if that's a claim by the farm or her own marketing strategy ;)

I see, so this is the originator of the speculation tat the HBRTG is a crossbreed ? Goodness .... and many believe ???

[shiokmc]

To Arofans who are still following this ....

Bro John
I think I've found the source of origin for HBRTG = RTG x XB.
I wuz at C328 and there it was right before my very eyes scribbled in marker pen on the tank :

Red Tail Gold X Cross Back Gold
(cross breed)
$480

Aunty wuz too busy with lunch time crowd so din ask if that's a claim by the farm or her own marketing strategy ;)
erm .....

if RTG average price for 5incher 400 and XBgolden average price about 1200

and assuming the 'CrossBreed' of these 2 types of golds is the 'HBRTG' ~ wouldnt it be priced maybe in the range of 800 or so ?:)

[aromatix]

erm .....

if RTG average price for 5incher 400 and XBgolden average price about 1200

and assuming the 'CrossBreed' of these 2 types of golds is the 'HBRTG' ~ wouldnt it be priced maybe in the range of 800 or so ?:)

i have no idea; best to ask C328 aunty ;)
btw, is that your arm in the background of yr avatar :p

[aromatix]

I see, so this is the originator of the speculation tat the HBRTG is a crossbreed ? Goodness .... and many believe ???

i'm not sure if this is the only source and how many believe.
my experince with this HBRTG variant is limited to my Sparky ;)

http://arofanatics.com/members/aromatix/pggrowthseries/image06.jpg

[Beerman]

i'm not sure if this is the only source and how many believe.
my experince with this HBRTG variant is limited to my Sparky ;)

http://arofanatics.com/members/aromatix/pggrowthseries/image06.jpg


Normal rtg also look like that......

[jpn]

Normal rtg also look like that......
as in the shine?

[aromatix]

Normal rtg also look like that......

nah, i'm sure there are better looking rtgs :o

[Hazy]

Normal rtg also look like that......

How to classify a normal and a HBRTG?

[Vetduck]

Simon, if u read closely what I'm putting across, I didn't say there's no possibility tat the HBRTG is a result of xback and rtg ....

I put across an aspect of mendelian genetics to actually show how complicated this part of science can be ... it can be dominant or it can be codominant like wat u hv expressed ... and thus due to this uncertainty, farms do not embarked on this programme to actually breed this strain of a HBRTG. I hv emphasise the point tat we hv to accept tat our aros today are less than pure ... no one knows how the ancestral line was mixed but certainly because of the uncertainty in genetics, and the economic reasons why it dun make sense to put them together, there's no specific breeding programme to churn out a HBRTG based on a XB and a RTG cross.

I agree there's a likelihood of chance breeding, somewhere along the ancestral line, it could be with a XBack, it could even be with a green, red or anything other breed tat may change the shine level but as much as we could not 100% say there's no xback genes, likewise we cannot say its a result of a XB/RTG mix at all, certainly not a result of a specific breeding programme to create this new strain

Yes perhaps there is also the possibility of a cross with green or another hybrid. Yes the aros today will definitely be so called less than pure. However how pure is pure & what is your definition of pure. Aros living things & they evolve with time. This evolution is either left to nature to take its course or some help from their human counterparts who start breeding farms.

So when you mention that aros these days are less than pure, does it mean that aros of yesterday years were purer? How such can we be of the purity of aros years ago? They could have evolved from whatever they were previously.

Indiscriminate breeding is not unheard of at farms. Hence your hbrtg could have evolved from there. I have seen rtg looking like greens. These hybrids are usually the throw backs from such indiscriminate breeding.

There could also be another scenario. Perhaps all if this hrtg stuff is just a marketing strategy. Just as the marketing stratery for reds where different names are given to the same grade 1 reds to make a little more profit. We know that grade 1 reds are the same, just that fancy names given to them. This could be the same for rtg. Just call the better developed ones hbrtg & they can easily earn an extra $100-$200. Why not easy money.

[Vetduck]

I do agree that the hbrtg may not be entirely pure. It maybe a hybrid, but we won't know for sure. However every now & then we see a rtg looking like a green. I've seen them & they were supposed to be called hybrid rtg. This could be the throw back we get in genetics & the offspring turned out looking like the other parent, which could be a green.

With this I could possibly offer another possible scenario. Farms may mix many different types of aros together to get them to breed. This tends to happen in farms that are not yet CITES registered or backyard breeders. To them as long as it breeds they can sell it & they can get their CITES breeding permit. Maybe that's how these green-rtg hybrids come about & also possibly the hbrtg.

As there is no real way to tell what genes the hbrtg carries, unless DNA testing is done. Maybe in the near future, with currently DNA work on aros we might be able to identify the ancestral mix of the hbrtg.

[liquidnoise]

I do agree that the hbrtg may not be entirely pure. It maybe a hybrid, but we won't know for sure. However every now & then we see a rtg looking like a green. I've seen them & they were supposed to be called hybrid rtg. This could be the throw back we get in genetics & the offspring turned out looking like the other parent, which could be a green.

With this I could possibly offer another possible scenario. Farms may mix many different types of aros together to get them to breed. This tends to happen in farms that are not yet CITES registered or backyard breeders. To them as long as it breeds they can sell it & they can get their CITES breeding permit. Maybe that's how these green-rtg hybrids come about & also possibly the hbrtg.

As there is no real way to tell what genes the hbrtg carries, unless DNA testing is done. Maybe in the near future, with currently DNA work on aros we might be able to identify the ancestral mix of the hbrtg.
toking about RTG that looks like green. I think u have seen it with ur own eyes. hehehehe summore from a reputable farm.
toking abt backyard breeders. i think its wat always like to call proxy farming. i dun understand the word proxy. coz its quite different in computer language for proxy.

[aromatix]

I do agree that the hbrtg may not be entirely pure. It maybe a hybrid, but we won't know for sure. However every now & then we see a rtg looking like a green. I've seen them & they were supposed to be called hybrid rtg. This could be the throw back we get in genetics & the offspring turned out looking like the other parent, which could be a green.

With this I could possibly offer another possible scenario. Farms may mix many different types of aros together to get them to breed. This tends to happen in farms that are not yet CITES registered or backyard breeders. To them as long as it breeds they can sell it & they can get their CITES breeding permit. Maybe that's how these green-rtg hybrids come about & also possibly the hbrtg.

As there is no real way to tell what genes the hbrtg carries, unless DNA testing is done. Maybe in the near future, with currently DNA work on aros we might be able to identify the ancestral mix of the hbrtg.

Yep, with DNA fingerprinting a lot can be told. if they take that further, then undesirable genetic traits (eg possibly Droopy Eye & PLJ) can be eliminated from brooding stocks.

But then there's the $$$ economics and enforcement. So long as consumers would like to gamble on TKLs, there'll also be Demand & hence, Supply ;)

[kagemaru]

Yep, with DNA fingerprinting a lot can be told. if they take that further, then undesirable genetic traits (eg possibly Droopy Eye & PLJ) can be eliminated from brooding stocks.

But then there's the $$$ economics and enforcement. So long as consumers would like to gamble on TKLs, there'll also be Demand & hence, Supply ;)

I guess with DNA fingerprinting it basically makes the whole pic more messy...wat if u see all the 1.5 red genes, rtg genes, greenie genes each constituting a part of the critical makeup of the DNA?

which one to eradicate and purify?...guess tats a mamonth task:p looking for errors is simple...rectifying them will take efforts and I mean a lot of efforts

Perhaps like our Doc have said...the genetics of aros may have evolved over time just like our traditional goldfish and kois...changes have been made to them either naturally or delibrately manipulated...how do we go around putting down wat constitutes "PURE" or "IMPURE"?

[jwhtan]

I do agree that the hbrtg may not be entirely pure. It maybe a hybrid, but we won't know for sure. However every now & then we see a rtg looking like a green. I've seen them & they were supposed to be called hybrid rtg. This could be the throw back we get in genetics & the offspring turned out looking like the other parent, which could be a green.

With this I could possibly offer another possible scenario. Farms may mix many different types of aros together to get them to breed. This tends to happen in farms that are not yet CITES registered or backyard breeders. To them as long as it breeds they can sell it & they can get their CITES breeding permit. Maybe that's how these green-rtg hybrids come about & also possibly the hbrtg.

As there is no real way to tell what genes the hbrtg carries, unless DNA testing is done. Maybe in the near future, with currently DNA work on aros we might be able to identify the ancestral mix of the hbrtg.

tat's the whole point ... u've seen rtgs tat looked like greens too .. w/o the certainty of knowing exactly how the ancestral mix is, there's no way for anyone to be absolutely sure tat the HBRTG is a result of it having XB genes ... of cos, we can't say tat it is w/o XB genes as well .. however, for sure, there's no such breeding programme in the farms specifically to create this strain, not discounting the chance breeding scenario of cos.

but with regards to getting CITES, the farmer cannot do this mix breeding to get the CITES cert. Every parent tat's spawned has to be in AVA's books. If one has the cert but somehow its not in AVA's records, it's still not recognised and tat is a problem these farms are currently facing.

[jwhtan]

toking about RTG that looks like green. I think u have seen it with ur own eyes. hehehehe summore from a reputable farm.
toking abt backyard breeders. i think its wat always like to call proxy farming. i dun understand the word proxy. coz its quite different in computer language for proxy.

proxy farming and backyard breeders are quite different.... we've a few members here who are into proxy farming ...

by backyard breeders, we usually meant those breeders w/o the CITES license and breed aros for sale, usually TKLs which regardless of parentage are all thrown into the same breeding pond, many of them with defects like one eye, no pectorals etc ... basically aros which have been discarded by their owners ... no QC and indiscriminate breeding

however, proxy farming is a term used for hobbyists who are interested in the breeding ... as owning a farm requires very high expenditure, the hobbyists then rent a pond in a properly registered CITES farm, place in his adult aros, and try to breed ... there are QC measures in place as every harvest means AVA has to be present and all aros are accordingly tagged.

[liquidnoise]

proxy farming and backyard breeders are quite different.... we've a few members here who are into proxy farming ...

by backyard breeders, we usually meant those breeders w/o the CITES license and breed aros for sale, usually TKLs which regardless of parentage are all thrown into the same breeding pond, many of them with defects like one eye, no pectorals etc ... basically aros which have been discarded by their owners ... no QC and indiscriminate breeding

however, proxy farming is a term used for hobbyists who are interested in the breeding ... as owning a farm requires very high expenditure, the hobbyists then rent a pond in a properly registered CITES farm, place in his adult aros, and try to breed ... there are QC measures in place as every harvest means AVA has to be present and all aros are accordingly tagged.
thx for the answer. i understand now. so for proxy a few fellows can cum together to put their aro in? who keeps the fries? farm or owners?

[jwhtan]

thx for the answer. i understand now. so for proxy a few fellows can cum together to put their aro in? who keeps the fries? farm or owners?

tat's subject to the conditions discussed between the owners and the farms ...

it can be hobbyist put in the adults, farms provide pond and food .... fries 50/50

it can be hobbyist put in the adults, pay farms a monthly maintenance, depending on the price negotiated, hobbyist can take all fries or maybe 70/30 watever tat's agreed upon

all terms are negotiated individually between hobbyist and farm

[aromatix]

I guess with DNA fingerprinting it basically makes the whole pic more messy...wat if u see all the 1.5 red genes, rtg genes, greenie genes each constituting a part of the critical makeup of the DNA?

which one to eradicate and purify?...guess tats a mamonth task:p looking for errors is simple...rectifying them will take efforts and I mean a lot of efforts

Perhaps like our Doc have said...the genetics of aros may have evolved over time just like our traditional goldfish and kois...changes have been made to them either naturally or delibrately manipulated...how do we go around putting down wat constitutes "PURE" or "IMPURE"?

yep, to even get pure specimens of XB, RTG & RED for a DNA library is oredi mind-boggling, if not impossible today. :o