Buy/Sell Forum: Auctions

[jwhtan]

Further to the discussion on Bidding, here's the guidelines for all to adhere to.
This will be with immediate effect


Bidding procedures

1. There will be no reserve price. Your start bid price will be considered as your reserve price. If you want to put your item for bid, the highest bidder will get the item. This will be deemed as the "market rate" in AF. If you dun intend to sell the item below a certain price, then just place it for sale at that price. Dun put it up for bidding.

2. Every Bid has to be posted here. Private messaging and sms will not be recognised. This is the privilege of being a member here. And this will also ensure transparency. Please accompany all bids by a contact number. This can be posted or by private messaging if one is not comfortable with his contact number shown.

3. All defects and condition of item is to be correctly listed. For any item not as described, bidder can ultimately reject the item upon viewing. Eg torn fin in an aro not described. Or maybe your pump has a cover missing etc

4. Collection date and place to be listed accordingly. If you cannot meet the collection date/place, please do not bid as you'll then be listed as an aeroplane buyer. The time and date should also not be changed as bidders find it very difficult to keep track. Cock and Bull excuses of parents/girlfriends/wives not allowing will not be entertained. Please ask permission if you need, before you bid.

5. Closing Time will be Arofanatics time. Bidding should not exceed five days from the time of posting. Experience have shown that lengthy period always results in genuine bidders missing out due to not being able to monitor the thread or oversight on closing date.

6. Sellers should not withdraw their sale prematurely. Same excuses of wives/girlfriends/parents not allowing the sale will not be entertained. Please ask permission if you need, before putting up for bidding. This point is only excusable if point 8 is met. In an unexpected scenario where the seller claims the fish RIP, the offer can be withdrawn but I dun want this to be a convenient excuse. Thread starter is to show highest bidder the fish tat's RIP.

7. Changing of terms and conditions after the auction starts is not allowed. For example, a package of a tankset and halfway through, you say the light or filter or anything that was originally included is now not included.

8. Doublenicks that are used to boost the sales on the bidding will be disabled and exposed accordingly, so please do not try.

9. In the event of a tie upon Auction close, the first bid with the highest bid price fulfilling all auction conditions will be the winning bid.

10.Any bid that has " Last edited by ......... " shown in the post will be void.

11.Optional : Sellers can list a " buy now price ". This is defined as a price where the moment it is reached, all bidding will stop and the item considered sold. This is also the highest price the seller expect from the item. However, you cannot list a " buy now price " in the midst of an ongoing auction.

12.Optional : whenever possible, sellers shd put in a pic of their item for sale.

13.Any flouting of these guidelines may result in ur account being banned or reps reset to 0 or deducted by 10, whichever that is lower. Ur posting privileges at Buy/Sell may be curtailed as well. Excuses of ignorance, forget, never read the guidelines etc will not be entertained.

[jwhtan]

Here's a suggestion on how u can put up your thread

I have a 3 year old QH VFSR for bidding
Tag date : April 2002
Tag number : 1234567
Start price : $1,000.00
Buy now price (optional) ; $2,500.00
Closing Date : 3 Days later ( put actual date) @ 2200hrs AF time
Collection at Geylang , Fish to be collected the day after the bid ends
Fish has one side droopy eyes and very slight PLJ, other than that no defects
Pics attached (optional)

Highest bidder will get the deal
As stated in house rules, there will be no reserve price.
All bids to state clearly on this thread.
Pls pm or post your contact numbers
Bids w/o contact numbers will not be recognised
All bidding in dollars only.
No private messaging

[DCKY]

Well done...........http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.arofanatics.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.arofanatics.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif Thanks..............;)

[Gymrat76]

Yup, too many cases where nobody knows if the seller is serious on his sale/bid... people bid or ask questions and get ignored... hopefully everyone will adhere to the guidelines

[jwhtan]

I'm not trying to stir up trouble. I just wish to seek clarification.
Today I find myself bidding for the same item I bidded a few weeks ago.
This same item that was offered for sale by the same seller also.
In the earlier auction, I was the lowest bidder, but, if all the buyers that offered to pay more than me defaulted, then............???????

Maybe some guidelines to help?

please retrieve the links so tat i can understand clearly wat u are trying to put across .... i'll prefer to see the complete picture before concluding anything

[Crazy Pacu]

Can somebody enlighten me on this aspect of the bidding system:

If the winner of the bid backs out, remain uncontactable, will the fish goes to the 2nd highest bid? if yes, this may lead to an unethical approach to win the bid. Mr A has the current highest bid. Mr B wants the fish and bids $10 more than Mr A. He then goes on to use another account or perhaps get his fren to bid a out of this world price...something that will most likely get the fish.

On collection day, the winner disappears.The seller, all ready to get rid of the fish, decides to just offer it to the 2nd highest bidder Mr B...cos he cant be bothered to go thru the bidding all over again.

No doubt the bidder is suppose to provide contact no. but it can always be fake, unless the seller bothers to call every bidder to authenticate b4 bidding ends .

This leads us to wonder whether the seller should allow pple to bid below the current highest price. Often we see in threads that if one person bid 50, the next person who comes along and bid 45 is soon being reminded that the current bid is 50 and his bid should be higher than that...

i feel that everyone should be able to offer their own price and not be restricted by the current highest price. In this way, should the buyer backs out last min, at least the seller wun be stuck with the fish. Also, the bidders can bid freely and are not constrained by the fact that the price they can offer has already been exceeded and they can only offer higher prices.

Hope the scenario i created is not giving any body ideas.

[jwhtan]

No the bid need not go to the second highest bidder. I've clarified this before in one of the bidding threads. The reason is very simple .... the bidding goes on for 5 days .... A bidded and B bids higher ... as far as A is concerned he has lost the bid .... he then goes on to buy the stuff he wants ... then B backs out ... no A is not liable for the bid even if his bid is the next highest bid.

As for doublenicks, look at point 7. We have the means to trace them and will do so on doubtful cases.

[Crazy Pacu]

No the bid need not go to the second highest bidder. I've clarified this before in one of the bidding threads. The reason is very simple .... the bidding goes on for 5 days .... A bidded and B bids higher ... as far as A is concerned he has lost the bid .... he then goes on to buy the stuff he wants ... then B backs out ... no A is not liable for the bid even if his bid is the next highest bid.

As for doublenicks, look at point 7. We have the means to trace them and will do so on doubtful cases.

I see...thanks for clarifying, but if in the case that A has the intention to cheat and states that he wants to be next in line, which is a common practice here...it is likely that the seller contacts the 2nd highest bidder. Not trying to create controversy here, but just trying to highlight the possibility of foul play and to protect the interests of other bidders. cheers

[Lobsterman]

Actually I do have another query. In the event that A post bid of $100 at 2359hrs and B posted another bid of $99 right after A's posting (also at 2359hrs but after A). Technically speaking, A should be the winner, as B's bid is less than A.

I believe we know of the "edit" function. In this case, if B managed to edit his bid to $101, he would win. Then again, A could also edit his bid... In this case, how is it going to be? :confused:

Then again, bidding is just another valueadd to this forum, I am not picking bones, but simply highlighting some scenerios...

[ehong0811z]

Here's a suggestion on how u can put up your thread

I have a 3 year old QH VFSR for bidding
Tag date : April 2002
Tag number : 1234567
Start price : $1,000.00
Buy now price (optional) ; $2,500.00
Closing Date : 3 Days later ( put actual date) @ 2200hrs AF time
Collection at Geylang , Fish to be collected the day after the bid ends
Fish has one side droopy eyes and very slight PLJ, other than that no defects
Pics attached (optional)

Highest bidder will get the deal
As stated in house rules, there will be no reserve price.
All bids to state clearly on this thread.
Pls pm or post your contact numbers
Bids w/o contact numbers will not be recognised
All bidding in dollars only.
No private messaging

Hi Mod,
Would like to suggest to add 1 item to your suggestion list where the bid ending time is concerned. A standard auction ending time will consider legal when the very last bid comes in exactly on the dot. Example an auction states bid end @ 2200hrs, and then a last minute bidder place a bid on exactly 2200hrs which is shown on his message time stamp, in this case it is valid.

A standard online auction will have the mechanism to remove the expired bid automatically, but we are not auction oriented. Therefore a dispute may arise
if 2 or more bidder want to bid on the edges of end time. Thanks for reading this message.

[ARK]

1Question bro john,i am running a lfs.can i post a bidding thread for my fishes.As bidder will only bid what they seem is right price.:)

[BarraCuda™]

1Question bro john,i am running a lfs.can i post a bidding thread for my fishes.As bidder will only bid what they seem is right price.:)

Do it in commercial buy&sell

[ARK]

Do it in commercial buy&sell

Bro,you mean a bidding thread in commercial/sell.

[Elegant Heng]

YA Admin
Is it possible for us to set up bid in the Commerial thread??

[Andrew Tan]

Do it in commercial buy&sell

Bro....sure????
If you allow LFS to do the bidding at the commercial buy and sell...later all the farm will be coming in also......
Just imagine 10 farms ,each of them put up 20 fishes for bid ...plus all the LFS in Singapore...wowwww:eek:

[cavallino]

We are in the midst of finalising a standardised set of guidelines. Please bear with us in the meantime.

[jebus]

We are in the midst of finalising a standardised set of guidelines. Please bear with us in the meantime.

hi i am against comm setups with auction.

as it means the forum has to bear the cost of a commercial entity's sales mechanism. its not seemingly fair for the one who is paying for bandwidth.

secondly,wun alot of LFS be if this becomes the norm then "coming" into the forum with choice picks aro/fishes and selling at a "higher" price. good for commercial entity but not good for hobbyists who may wanna test their choosing skills/grooming skills.

at the end of the day af.com shld cater to hobbyist interest rther than other parties.

no offense to commercial entities here.

but i just feel that auction wld mean only rich hobbyists gets to grab hold of good fish no chance for normal hobbyists, and as a hobbyists forum, growth/awareness of fish species will not grow if the few good fish are always sapu by the same few ppl and newbies/others no chance to do so

[Eagle&Ladybird]

Maybe a win-win situation can be established, whilst the forum allows commercial bidding/activities, any successful sales shall pay a reasonable commission to AF forum, towards the maintenance of the site.

But of course it will alos invite other complications as well.

[lincolngoh]

Can sellers change the end date of the auction 1/2 way through?

[Aroboy II]

Preferably not. As what John had pointed out here:

6. Sellers should not withdraw their sale prematurely.

Unless a valid good reason is given such as buy now price is met.

[jPoPbOl]

can ask if 22oohr af time is our singapore wat time?

[Aroboy II]

Yes, according to AF time meaning Singapore time. Cheers.

[lincolngoh]

Preferably not. As what John had pointed out here:

6. Sellers should not withdraw their sale prematurely.

Unless a valid good reason is given such as buy now price is met.

How about changing the end date to make it earlier or later?

[Aroboy II]

How about changing the end date to make it earlier or later?

Not suppose to change once the bid thread is up.

[Fins&Tails]

1) how about last day of bid suddenly add in a BNP? can or cannot?

2) for instance bid ends at that particular day/timing, and AF is down for maintenance for couple of hours and bid ends during that maintanence period, how to conclude the bid?

Thanks bro mods :)

Cheers

[Dexter G]

Actually I do have another query. In the event that A post bid of $100 at 2359hrs and B posted another bid of $99 right after A's posting (also at 2359hrs but after A). Technically speaking, A should be the winner, as B's bid is less than A.

I believe we know of the "edit" function. In this case, if B managed to edit his bid to $101, he would win. Then again, A could also edit his bid... In this case, how is it going to be? :confused:

Then again, bidding is just another valueadd to this forum, I am not picking bones, but simply highlighting some scenerios...

Forum moderator,
can i have some indication on how to resolve issue with regards to the use of "edit" function in the case of bidding thread?
Would you be able to find out from the system at what time was the edit function used?

[Aroboy II]

Sorry to ask a question that may not be related to bidding, but related to buy / sell. Just too ask, do i have to state the price of my sales? or can i ask buyer to offer me ? sorry, new to this.

No, you are to state your selling price.

Forum moderator,
can i have some indication on how to resolve issue with regards to the use of "edit" function in the case of bidding thread?
Would you be able to find out from the system at what time was the edit function used?

After you have posted, your new post will have a "edit" button besides the "quote"button. This "edit" button will expired within certain time limit, and if you need to add/amend anything, you may pm the buy/sell mods or post your message in a new post of your buy/sell thread itself.

[Dexter G]

No, you are to state your selling price.



After you have posted, your new post will have a "edit" button besides the "quote"button. This "edit" button will expired within certain time limit, and if you need to add/amend anything, you may pm the buy/sell mods or post your message in a new post of your buy/sell thread itself.

Thanks for your reply.
What i ment to ask was:
lets say you place a bid few minutes before end bid time.
And subsequently someone place a higher bid than you.
You still have a few more minutes after the end bid time to "edit" your bid.
Doesn't that bend the rules of the bidding system?

Does the forum system have a time record on when the message was "eddited"?
Just want to clarify. Many thanks.

[Aroboy II]

Thanks for your reply.
What i ment to ask was:
lets say you place a bid few minutes before end bid time.
And subsequently someone place a higher bid than you.
You still have a few more minutes after the end bid time to "edit" your bid.
Doesn't that bend the rules of the bidding system?

Does the forum system have a time record on when the message was "eddited"?
Just want to clarify. Many thanks.

Better post a new bid (highest bid in this case). No point to edit the previous post.

[Dexter G]

Better post a new bid (highest bid in this case). No point to edit the previous post.

new bid also no use wor..
first of all the new bid may be pass the end bid timing.
and the other person may choose to just "edit" his previous post to out bid again.

[Aroboy II]

new bid also no use wor..
first of all the new bid may be pass the end bid timing.
and the other person may choose to just "edit" his previous post to out bid again.

Then you have to wait for the last 1 min and bid. Even you edit, the other bidder also can edit his bid as well.

[Dexter G]

Then you have to wait for the last 1 min and bid. Even you edit, the other bidder also can edit his bid as well.

This is the problem i am talking about.
So like this how to solve the problem?

You are the forum moderator right?
can you see from the system records when the particular bid/post was last editted?

[Aroboy II]

Yes, I could see the post last edited.

[CharlieBrown]

This is the problem i am talking about.
So like this how to solve the problem?

You are the forum moderator right?
can you see from the system records when the particular bid/post was last editted?
Just use the "quote" button to lock-in the other person's post. So even if he subsequently tries to edit his own post, he can't edit what you have already "quoted". He only has sufficient time to change his post, before you post (meaning he cannot see what you reply beforehand).

[redbasser]

Just use the "quote" button to lock-in the other person's post. So even if he subsequently tries to edit his own post, he can't edit what you have already "quoted". He only has sufficient time to change his post, before you post (meaning he cannot see what you reply beforehand).

What happens if the person quoting the reply changes the bidders' price?
(Can it be done?)
Who should I believe if I'm the seller?

[Dexter G]

This is getting tricky and technical.
Any other moderators care to comment on this?

Just want to be clear once and for all. (if possible)

[CharlieBrown]

What happens if the person quoting the reply changes the bidders' price?
(Can it be done?)
Who should I believe if I'm the seller?

You can change the bidder's price only in your own post, but there's always the bidder's post that you can't change. :) As an example, I am quoting your post now, and I can change what you say (in the box), but I cannot change your original post. Just need to compare the two to get the story. Don't forget that the posts are all time logged, so comparing the times will give you a fairly good idea what went on.

This is getting tricky and technical.
Any other moderators care to comment on this?

Just want to be clear once and for all. (if possible)
I don't see what the problem is. There's nothing technical at all.

[redbasser]

I'm making up this scenario, for easier discussion.

If you edit your original post within a few minutes of posting, the "Edited" message will not appear at the bottom of your posting. (True?)

-- Post #15 --
Person X bids $100

-- Post #16 --
Person Y quotes -- "Person X bids $99"
Person Y bids $100.

--Post #17 ---
Seller closes the auction.
------------------------------

Person X argues that he did not edit his post after the auction closed.

Person Y argues that he did not change anything when he quoted Person X.

Seller sells to who?

[Aroboy II]

Bidder Y's bid is not valid at all since bidder X already bid 100. If bidder Y want to win he need to bid higher and not the same. Seller in this case should sell to bidder X. Simple as that.

If Seller complained to me, I will give bidder Y an infraction being dishonest in this case.

[redbasser]

Could it be possible that X edited his post after Y quoted him?

And Y is innocent?

[Aroboy II]

As far as the system does not show bidder X had edited his post (even he had as what you had mentioned) he still won the auction. Reason, he bid first and highest. So for Y to win, bid higher and within the time frame.

[redbasser]

Pls correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of the situation.

Based on the scenario I've described.

It is possible that Person X edited his post after the auction closed but the system doesn't show that he has changed it.

It is possible that Person Y quoted what was the actual bid price of Person X before it was changed.

From what was discussed, Person X wins the auction?

So it is possible that Person X cheats by editing his post after the closing and wins the auction.

And Person Y who initially saw Person X's real post, makes a quote of that post. Gets accused of changing Person X's post.

[CharlieBrown]

Pls correct me if I'm wrong in my understanding of the situation.

Based on the scenario I've described.

It is possible that Person X edited his post after the auction closed but the system doesn't show that he has changed it.

It is possible that Person Y quoted what was the actual bid price of Person X before it was changed.

From what was discussed, Person X wins the auction?

So it is possible that Person X cheats by editing his post after the closing and wins the auction.

And Person Y who initially saw Person X's real post, makes a quote of that post. Gets accused of changing Person X's post.

Thanks for the questions. I know what you are referring to.

If I were Person Y, to deal with this problem, I would do this. Use the "Post Quick Reply" function, together with quoting Person X's post, and put my bid. What happens next is this. Person X's post would be quoted at the time of my posting. This would prevent Person X from changing his post.

Two possibilities can occur, if Person X is editing his post while Person Y is trying to bid:
(1) If Person X has not finished editing his post, and Person Y posts his bid, the original post would be quoted in Person Y's post.
(2) If Person X has finished editing his post and saves the changes, and then Person Y posts his bid, the revised post is quoted instead.

Hope this clarifies your questions.

[ongorg]

Hi MOD,

May I asked, if there is NO one bidding for the auction, I change the start price down, is it OK? Didnt violate any trading or biding rules right?

Regards :D

[Aroboy II]

If you find suitable, I suggest you can put in "buy now price" in your auction which is optional in your thread.

[laodie]

Hi MOD,

May I asked, if there is NO one bidding for the auction, I change the start price down, is it OK? Didnt violate any trading or biding rules right?

Regards :D

can this be done actually?:confused:

[Aroboy II]

If no one bids, it will be at the discretion of the Buy/Sell Mods to decide.
I have no objection provided it is not too often changing the starting price.

[redbasser]

Just want to know what is the Mods view on this.

The auction details/conditions attached together with the pic instead of posted directly onto the thread.

Something like this.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh217/redbasser/auction.jpg

[Aroboy II]

As long as the pic is the real fish, real tag no. and from CITIES farm, I will accept it as valid auction thread. All terms and conditions are to be conform with our guidelines as usual.

[redbasser]

The point I want to raise is 'editing'.

I can edit the conditions anytime I want.

[Aroboy II]

The point I want to raise is 'editing'.

I can edit the conditions anytime I want.

Depends on what the thread starter want to edit. Like what?

[redbasser]

Its not 'what' I want to edit.

Its 'when' I want to edit.

I can edit the conditions even when the time allowed (in AF) has expired.

[Aroboy II]

Its 'when' I want to edit.

I can edit the conditions even when the time allowed (in AF) has expired.

If u edit a thread, you need to state the reason on what basis. From here, we will be the judge. Fair?

No reason given then closed the thread. Fair?

[redbasser]

Did you notice that I changed the pic (in this discussion) from the original.

Collection from Neverland to Singapore?

[Aroboy II]

In your example, location change is alright to me. But not the date and time of the auction ends. As I post before, u change u must state clearly what you have changed if not dont start such thread.

[redbasser]

There is no record that a winning buyer can refer if the seller changes the condition afterwards.
This can lead to disputes.

[Aroboy II]

There is no record that a winning buyer can refer if the seller changes the condition afterwards.
This can lead to disputes.

Look, we had to see what is edited, when it was last edited.
Worst come to worst if the thread starter keeps editing his auction thread, I will delete it. Simple as that. I dun want any auction to be so sophisticated/complicated.

[redbasser]

You will only delete a thread if you know it has been edited many times..

-- Understood.

Question.

How many times did I change the pic used for this discussion?

[Aroboy II]

You will only delete a thread if you know it has been edited many times..

-- Understood.

Question.

How many times did I change the pic used for this discussion?

Why u need to change the pic in the first place?:confused:
I really dun understand?
Anyway after so much issues had been raise, I think I will reverse my decision. This type of auction not allowed.

Wasting time over our end also. Somemore, we are not 24/7 Mods here.:o

[AlvinLeong]

Mr redbasser..... u think too much. This is no perfect system.

[Paradize]

Dear Moderators,
Looking to improve the bid process for better market operation. Do let me know your thinking. My humble suggestion below.

In Ebay, a bidder after bidding 1 price, can set the maximum price that are willing to bid in case they are outbidded. Are there plans to implement this?

This would benefit sellers so that althou the bidder maybe outbidded when he is away, the auto mechanism will help him be the top bidder.

Since AF disallow doublenicks, there is little chance of abuse of seller trying to push up price and buy back fish if price below expectations.

This will also prevent the phenomenom of last minute bidders when there are no bids for 6hours.

An alternative is if there are new bidders in the last 5minutes before official closing, the auction is automatically extended by 5minutes. This is slightly closer in spirit to the SGX way whereby the last minutes of trading the prices, buyers and sellers are brought together to prevent last minute support for certain stocks that cause the index or a certain stock to fluctuate wildly. Some companies used to do this to make their performance look good for financial year end closing.

[marshy]

AF is not ebay... Buy/Sell is not the main core function of AF as ebay is.
If buyer is serious about the auction and worried he may not be around on bid end, he should bid the mximum he is comfortable with. Else its too bad.

[Paradize]

Please see the suggestion to improve AF as a fair place.

true as you mention it is not the main core function, maybe to reduce AF Mod time, efforts and AF memory space/ bandwidth is to stop buy/sell. it would allow resources to better concentrate on AF's core competencies such as its sharing forum to provide best value.

if AF continues Auctions, I propose a small rule change that does not require any extra computer coding or extra cost. just allow 5minute extension if any bid comes in the last 5minutes because when we notice some low price auctions, last few minutes sees many bids after being quiet for hours or days.

I have been involved in 1 auction and let the higher bidder take the fish although I was the "last" highest bidder to benefit the seller. recently, i was the highest bidder but missed by seconds to respond to 2nd rival bidder. I congratulate the legal winner but the seller miss out on higher market price of their fish.

the rule change will benefit the seller to get better price without AF adding any cost, no extra computer code, only 5minute extension rule change.

I pray you see this in a positive light of improving AF.