View Full Version : URGENT..Warts on Arrowana scales
There seems to be a condition on the scales of my Silver Arrowana. There are pinkish lumps/warts that are about 3mm diameter and it's body is not swollen. And it's prevelent on the upper section of the body. The problem seems to be worsening. Can anybody offer some quick cures and advice please.:confused:
Hi Vee2!
The "warts" you're describing maybe hemorrhagic lymphocystis or dermal sarcoma. Both are viral diseases and similar (often being mistaken as the other) that are extremely difficult to manage with medication. Grossly, nodular lesions are commonly white to gray but maybe "pinkish" as well, due to hemorrhage.
1. How long has this been observed?
2. Does your aro have tankmates?
3. What have you been feeding your aro?
4. Are there any new fishes/tankmates in the tank?
5. What's your tank setup? Gravel/Substrate? Filter?
6. What's your average tank temperature?
7. How do you maintain your tank?
8. When do you maintain your tank?
9. Are there any other physical abnormalities observed?
10. How is your aro's behavior? Appetite? Activity?
If it is indeed lymphocystis or sarcoma, then the lesions should disappear by themselves, provided a healthy and stress-free environment.
What do you mean by "worsening"? Is it spreading or are the nodules growing bigger?
In the meantime, make a 30% water change with .3% salt. Drop your temp down to 27C or lower to prevent stress. Do the temp. change gradually over a period of days. It is highly recommended that you quarantine your aro if it has tankmates, to prevent further infections. Check your filter and clean "smartly" without killing all your bacteria in the media. If you have gravel, siphon meticulously.
Let us know man!
Hi vee2,
the answers to emps questions will add evidence to the diagnosis, and might tell us how your aro acquired it. we can then prevent it in the future..
can u ALSO pls provide more description of the problem.
Location( where exactly?? how big an area?? both sides? are the fins ok?)
numbers roughly, if u can count them of course.
shape?
are they rough or smooth?
is the rest of the skin like sand-paper?
any areas of cloudiness on the skin?
breathing any faster or deeper than usual?
any recent history of trauma( abrasions, fightings etc)?
any itching or scratching or rubbing?
well, we need to confirm how the bumps look like( your idea of a wart might b different to mine). but from what it sounds like, it's most likely to b lymphocystis. other causes include undiscovered viruses such as pox infections? also nasty protozoan infections such as myxospora, microspora infections, but these r rare in aquarium fishes...
lymphocystis is caused by an iridovirus infection. bumps can b as big as 2 cm! and will start to consolidate n partially fuse as they grow bigger. but it'll stop eventually( usually after a few months). nothing we can do except to prevent secondary skin infections.
a fish with skin wounds is more likely to catch the virus.
a fish will not b immune to future infections. can get it again!
ideally, it is best to perform a salt bath to rule out any other skin diseases, and to prevent future problems. it'll cause some stress to your aro, but i think it's justifiable. but let's confirm our diagnosis first mate.
Thank you both for the indepth reply...
Since yesterday, I've changed 40litres out of 600litres of water in my tank and have added 200grams of salt to lower the pH.
The lumps as I was describing are only apparent on one side of the arrow, and they don't seem to be getting bigger. The "worsening" condition is that it seems to be spreading... So far, it has only 7 of these lumps, which are still about 3mm in diameter. They are between greyish and pinkish colour, and looks abit like a pimple. There is only one on an individual scale.
My arrow is behaving as normal, and it's tankmates, namely 5 red parrots and a pleco seem to be normal too. They eat Hikari floating Arrow sticks and my filtration system for the tank is over 2000litres/ hr and I normally change the water once a week and regularly vacumm their wastes. I try to maintain the water temp at 25C. This is new to me, I've only spotted this condition 3 days ago.
Do you think I should wait for a week or two to see if the condition improves, or should I seek help from Fish Doc????hehehe. :eek:
If u r really worried, and have a fish vet around, by all means, give him/her a yell. they just have to take a few skin scrapes( and possibly a gill biopsy) to confirm lymphocystis. under the microscope, u'll see extremely large cells--these are infected skin cells( fibroblast) that have hypertrophied/enlarged because of the virus. it's diagnostic/pathonomonic. alternatively, they might diagnose various skin protozoans/parasites etc....
or u could adopt the wait n see approach....it's only 3 days man..it'll probably continue to grow.
hey, r these bumps raised? or flat?
and what's this acidic salt u r adding?
any water parameters( ammonia, pH etc)?
Hi guys! the lumps is not flat. they start off a hump then it goes flat
Realli weird!!!!!! and my Ph is now 6.5,I just been adding PH down,Is it the right thing to do,i was thinking the ph down powder is like a salt base???????Issit when you say having a salt bath means adding more salt?is the type of salt you get from marine fish????
Ok.. Hold that right there.. Don't go adjusting your Ph significantly over just a few days. Your aro have been acclimated to your Ph and should have just been left alone to prevent further stress. It's a bit late now to warn your. What was your initial Ph reading? My tanks had been playin' around 7.2 - 7.5 for the past couple of months. Just as long as you're not hitting 8 or below 6.5, you should be alright. Actually in some cases, aros can still tolerate up to 6. Again, let us know about your initial Ph reading, before you did the adjustment. Why were you adjusting the Ph in the first place?
Remember that if you're trying to adjust your waters Ph, it is imperative that you know your KH. High KH will make your efforts useless, as the Ph would sure climb up/down to the original reading. So, understand your KH before tackling your Ph - which I would advise against if your readings are between 6.5-8.
Now is it a good thing to bring your Ph down? As I've said, if it's extremely high, you can try lowering it over weeks. But guess what, your tank's nitrogen cycle has acid byproduct from nitrate (nitric acid). This in turn brings your KH down and makes your Ph acidic, lowering it over time. Understand that if you have brought your Ph down, this means that you've used up the buffering capacity of your water until your next water change. What if nitrates go way high before your water change. Then, your Ph 6.5 in a buffer-less water with nitric acid drops down even lower, say about 4+ in a week. Now, say you replace your water before this happens, guess what? Your water change has gotten rid of some of the acid and introduced fresh "buffer" in the tank - your Ph climbs back up to the original reading. Get the concept?
Salt bath, as ISNA has mentioned is not performed in the tank. It should be performed in a hospital tank - a quarantine tank. ISNA has already stated the benefits of this method. The salt to be use should be aquarium salt not table salt or iodized salt which contains anti-caking agents. Don't use marine salt, as most them are artificial. One good brand of Aquarium salt is Doc Wellfish by Aquarium Pharmaceuticals. Check it out.
Keep us posted bro!
Nauzer
16-09-2002, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by Isna
Hi vee2,
the answers to emps questions will add evidence to the diagnosis, and might tell us how your aro acquired it. we can then prevent it in the future..
can u ALSO pls provide more description of the problem.
Location( where exactly?? how big an area?? both sides? are the fins ok?)
numbers roughly, if u can count them of course.
shape?
are they rough or smooth?
is the rest of the skin like sand-paper?
any areas of cloudiness on the skin?
breathing any faster or deeper than usual?
any recent history of trauma( abrasions, fightings etc)?
any itching or scratching or rubbing?
Hi guys, i would like to contribute to this thread as i face the same anonymous problem. Previously, as emps and Isna would recall, i started the thread "initial signs of parasite on pectorial fins". This is the latest update on the matter. Maybe Vee can verify and match with his aro after seeing some images i will be posting.
For the benefit of all, i shall attach several images to describe what i am talking about.
When i first noticed the nodular bumps (as seen below), they were only present on the rays of the pectorial fins, 3 nodular transluscent like swellings on the aro's right pectorial fin (PF) and one small swelling on the left PF. For the past few weeks, after visiting several shops, I have noticed the same phenomenon (similar to the left PF) on several aros. Maybe 40% out of all the aros have them. Either 1 or 2 small nodular bumps on the PF's rays. I asked around but no lfs owner seems to know what it is. The only advise they give is that its harmless and increase temp, add salt. One beautiful red even had 3 on each PF, nicely positioned in symetrcial order!
Anyway, this is image 1 (i can't attach the images as it was previously posted on my earlier thread, so please refer there)
Nauzer
16-09-2002, 10:25 AM
Here is the updated image!
It has been 2 weeks and the one and only swelling on the left PF seems to be subsiding. However, 1 of the previous 3 nodular swellings on the right PF seems to have gotten bigger. Previously, you could only see it on the underside, now that the swelling has increased in size, its even obvious looking from the top of the right PF
See image......
Nauzer
16-09-2002, 10:31 AM
here is another closer shot of the raised nodular bump. It seems to have increase in size by 2 times. Note that all other white spots that you see in the image are just bubbles. The problem area only exists in the PF.
Could this be lymphosystis? And Vee, is this what you are seeing on your aro's body???
Thanks Nauzer,and all the guys,
Today i when to the pet store and got some rock salt, and added 150grms Seem that all the fish love it!!!!! yeah kinda cool .....kekekeke,anyways Thanks for your image Nauzer,Yeah i think it`s the same..but i got it on the scale,they are all in line but only one side of the fish!!!!!!!!!weirded..... the other side is perfect....couple of them(lumps) look like have been pop and have a dent(hole),now the scale seems to be ok but just have a hole on it! i think this things spreads...just that now it`s moving to the tail,the shape of the lump is round,
So now i just have to wait and see if the rock salt will help the poor ARO.:mad:
I will keep you GUYS Updated!!!!!!!
Hi Vee!
Just wanted to make sure about this. How much salt did you add into the tank? .3% should be enough. Also, salt is not going to work and fight this particulay disease directly (if lymph is our main suspect). Don't keep your hopes to high. Instead, salt will help your fish osmoregulate. Better condition for the fish means better immune system to remit the infection.
I think all our advise are in the same direction, including Nauzer's. :) Let the pathogen run its cycle. Just keep your tank parameters good and keep those water changes coming. Give your fish excellent and varied diet and you wouldn't have to worry about secondary infections. :)
Nauzer, that bump looks like the lesions on my cichs, but were just more pink. I diagnosed their case as lymphocystis and let them be without medications. I believe it took about a month or a month and a half before they cleared out - completely. Although I would have to admit that I didn't maintain their tank as religiously as I had before when the outbreak took place, I still believe their infection were due to poor water quality, as I 'm not feeding them any live feeder.
Goodluck guys!
Nauzer
17-09-2002, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by vee2
couple of them(lumps) look like have been pop and have a dent(hole),now the scale seems to be ok but just have a hole on it! i think this things spreads...just that now it`s moving to the tail,the shape of the lump is round,
So now i just have to wait and see if the rock salt will help the poor ARO.:mad:
I will keep you GUYS Updated!!!!!!!
Hi vee, just a pre-caution, keep your options open. Because from what you have described.....about having a hole and the thing moving to the tail......it does sound more like the ich parasite. As far as i know, lymphosystis should remain relatively stable in the manner of being isolated in the same location.
The ich parasite works in the manner of growing and sucking off the nutrients in the cells of your aro and when its mature, it will break out, begin to multiply by the thousands and thereafter search for a new host as a carrier. This process is takes place within one week if you water temp is between 25-30 degrees. And as they say, when they break out of the body/ fins, during the free swimming stage, its the only time to kill the parasite. So observe very carefully.
Take a look here:
http://www.2cah.com/pandora/Disease.html
Emps, you know something, my cichlids had them too. But i do agree with you....patience and close observance is the key to possible recovery. I even started a log book to record all forms of observations and record tank parameter adjustments.
What do you think of a diet of frogs, sw and mp during this period? safe?
thanks!
Live feeders are good, with the exception of feeder fishes (you know my stand on those babies :) ). Just avoid overfeeding and they should be fine. My choice not to feed live on my cichlids is more financial than anything else. :D
With regards to Vee, I would rule out Ich as the lesions are rather big at 3mm and the coloration is still indicative of lymph or similar type of virus.
hi emp and nauzer and the boys......
thanks emp for the site,i don`t think this lump is lch,it`s realli weird,and i dun think i can take a image it`s kinda small to view it,see what i can do,and
Today i check my PH it is on 7.0,and did water change again 20lt,then added 50g of rock salt,Now i think the lump have stop!!!!! the white stuff have gone, BUT! It stilll leaves hole to the scale,So I guess i still maintain the tank and have to monitor it just abit more,I hope and cross my fingers,this type of disease
will go away soon.........i will keep you guy posted...
Hi guys,
sorry for not keeping up-to-date...
firstly, thanks nauzer for sharing the pics n thoughts!
well, just by looking at the photos, it's really hard to tell. the middle bit of the lesion looks chalky n white n opaque n raised. now this could very much b lymphocystis.
on the other hand, most of the other parts of the lesion, around the periphery is rather translucent looking. this could b caused by heaps of bugs, from protozoans to trematodes to bacteria to fungus.......
remember, lymphocystis lesions r ALWAYS raised and pearly white looking. they r most commonly found on the fins.
i wouldn't say they r very common, much less seen than ich n other skin parasites that cause cloudy-opague patches..
. anyway, the rule with skin lesions is NOT TO TRUST YOUR EYES.....they can vary a lot grossly. often, u'll b wrong just by making a diagnosis based on gross appearance. exceptions do exisit of course, esp with ich, anchor worms, fish lice etc. ich for e/g causes characteristic white spot lesions ranging from 0.1 to 1 mm in size. However, most other skin problems overlap with each other in gross appearance.
anyway, that's why we always do skin scrapes to confirm a skin problem. this is often not available to aquarists, so a treatment trial is often used..i.e. treat with salt baths--which kills some bugs. if it recovers, yup, we know most likely it had bugs which were susceptible to salt( most skin protozoans, flukes, and fungus)....if it doesn;'t improve, we know it's likely to b something resistant to salt baths( e.g ich, lymphocystis, tumours, TB etc )
so. doing salt treatments help to NARROW our list of possibilities.
vee2, r these lesions white n pearly n very very thick looking, or r they kinda transparent--slightly opague.....the fact that it sort of responded to the salt, n leaves a 'dimple' as u;ve suggested doesn;t support our diagnosis of lymphocystis.
can u pls varify the following:
how big again?? have a close look again bro. measure it again...about 3 mm u reckon?
how raised is it? how many mm?
are the bumps discrete n well defined?? is there a very sharp n clear margin between the bump n normal skin? or is there a blurr-fuzzy area-indiscrete lesion??
check out these lymphocystis photos:
http://www.dainet.de/bfafi/ifo/Cuxhaven/lymphocystis.htm
http://www.ian-graham.co.uk/fish/New%20Folder/UKAquarium/i_virus.htm
notice how opaque n white these lesions r??
they r also very well demacated from normal tissue. very clear sharp margins....they don't merge diffusely into surrounding tissue.
also, they r raised n BIG!
and when u get heaps, they tend to coalese n fuse together to give cauliflower-like growths.
Hi Guys,
just tested my nitrate(NO3) i use the Sera brand,and my water condition is 10mg/l so is kinda average nitrate level,
and still doin 40l of water change and 0.3% of rock salt,PH 7
and now it`s seem like those things has gone but! but still leave a dent on his scale.
I think the salt is working ........ and at least i can tell that the white stuff have gone but still have to see if the hole will recover by it self!!!!!!
Thanks GUYS
will still keep you all posted and next time ppl might have this same problem we know how to kill it,
So i guess i`ll be the test pilot!!!!!
:p
Nauzer
23-09-2002, 04:22 PM
hi guys!
I would like to say thanks to VETDUCK for his expert hands in carrying out a surface scrape (for a sample of the bacteria) on the 'lump' on the pectorial fins of my aro.
After his diagnosis under the microscope, he might be able to disclose the kind of bacteria present and thereafter administer the right treatment accordingly.
Notice in the attached picture that the lump on the pectorial fins has grown slightly bigger than before. The aro has recovered very well after the minor operation.
Will keep this thread updated with findings shortly.....
Vetduck
24-09-2002, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Nauzer
hi guys!
I would like to say thanks to VETDUCK for his expert hands in carrying out a surface scrape (for a sample of the bacteria) on the 'lump' on the pectorial fins of my aro.
After his diagnosis under the microscope, he might be able to disclose the kind of bacteria present and thereafter administer the right treatment accordingly.
Notice in the attached picture that the lump on the pectorial fins has grown slightly bigger than before. The aro has recovered very well after the minor operation.
Will keep this thread updated with findings shortly.....
You're most welcome. Don't thank me too soon. Let me stain it & have a look under the microscope first. Hopefully the sample taken was adequate. Will up you updated. :)
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