HELP! Protruding Scales

[Skimmer]

Hi there,

My xback has a batch of scales which is protruding or open up, it was ok last night n notice it tis morning.

Can anyone out there pls help? wat is the cause n how to cure?

Many thanx in advance.

[ken_yg]

I think u may like to read thru this section whilst awaiting for experts advices...... http://arofanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17402&highlight=protruding+scales

[Hobbit6003]

Hi Skimmer,

The signs you described are not too specific to come to any conclusions about the definitive diagnosis. Let me help you out a little here by asking you afew questions below:

1. Was the onset sudden, or was it a progression?
2. Is there any signs of a truamatic wound near the region? Is there reddishness around the affected area?
3. Are there any other scales that are showing signs of scales standing up?
4. How's the fish's appetite? What is its diet like? Is the stomach bloated in anyway?

Before you give me an answer, maybe I'd like to move on to the possible causes:

1. Trauma which may lead to secondary infection

Your aro may have jumped, or it has scraped against something which has traumatised the scales around the affected area.

The onset is usualy sudden, and only the traumatic area shows the protruding or avulsed scales, and it doesn't spread. The skin underneath the scales may look reddish and swollen.

If the fish is stressed or the water quality undesirable, secondary bacteria infection can set in.

For this, you'd probably want to monitor your fish for a while. Traumatic wound usually heals by itself. However, to prevent secondary infection, you may want to maintain a salt concentration of 1% in your tank. Also make sure that the tank is kept clean at all times.

2. Primary localised infection

If the water is fouled or when the fish is stressed, sometimes external bacteria or parasitic infection, leading to secondary bacteria infection, can occur. The signs and symptoms is very much the same as that of the above.

This usually occurs if the water condition is bad, and the fish is highly stressed. In such situation, the infection may spread, ans worse, cause a systemic infection or septicaemia to the fish. If the disease does progress to this stage, it can be fatal.

Thus, to treat the infection, you'd want to rectify the water condition first. You can maintain 1% salt concentration, or may increase it to 3% if the infection is worse or spreading. You may also use proprietary medication in conjunction with salt.

3. Dropsy

Dropsy is a syndrome whereby there's excessive water retention within the cells of the fish. Because of this, the scales are seen standing up from the skin.

Dropsy indicates a more serious systemic problem, that there's a osmoregulatory dysfunction due to organ failures, either through a systemic infection or neoplastic growth (tumour).

The common cause of dropsy is an internal bacteria infection. If left untreated early on, this is usually fatal. I'm afraid addition of salt is not adequate. You'd probably want to try your luck and use medications meant for internal bacteria infection.

What I've listed above are possible causes to the signs you've described. Maybe you'd like to answer the questions I've posed and let more pple help you along the way.

Cheers,

Kenny

[HongJinBao]

Originally posted by Hobbit6003
Hi Skimmer,

Thus, to treat the infection, you'd want to rectify the water condition first. You can maintain 1% salt concentration, or may increase it to 3% if the infection is worse or spreading. You may also use proprietary medication in conjunction with salt.

Cheers,

Kenny

Hi Skimmer
you have a dropsy.do not wait for the aromedics.by the time you answer their questions, i personally feel that it migjt be too late. if possible go to the nearest lfs get a medication - Multicure increase temp 1 deg slowly till the thermometer reads 32 and salt to only 0.5%.. Good Luck.


Dearest Kenny
Do you know that 1% salt is way too high for a severe treatment of fish ailments.Wowow 3%? I think Alvin should consider about having you as the Aromedics? I can't believe it that you have the authority to make such a remark...1 to 3%.???:eek:

Think about it.Please PEACE here and if you really don't know ask your fellow aromedics.Do not make another people's aro into yet another propaganda of your playing grounds to test this and test that.

Alvin please take note.Thanks

[Hobbit6003]

Hi HongJin Bao,

I'd think that 1% salt concentration would be a prohylactic dose that you may maintain in your tank should you have a sniff of an infection coming your way. Yes, 3% would be rather high, but it is the best chance you've got if the infection is severe. It is more suitable for a dip treatment though. But can you imagine the transfer of your aro?

And no, I don't have an agenda to push for, and I'd stand by what I've just said. I don't know where you're coming from, but I do feel offended by the way you put your point across.

I do not claim to be an expert, just sharing my knowledge around, and if you do not agree with what i've said, pls feel free to discuss it here. In medical sciences, there's no right or wrong, but a sharing of knowledge and discussion will do us all some good.

What I've suggested are some of the provisional diagnosis, and you cannot possibly diagnose the case without further info. Can a doctor treat your ailment by just listening to your complaints over the phone?

Sheesh.....where the hell do you come from????:(

Cheers,

Kenny

[Hobbit6003]

Hi HongJinBao and all,

Shucks!!!! I made terrible mistake in my calculation. 1gm/L is 0.1% and not as 1% which I've just stated.

Sorry for this blatant mistake that I've made, and the impulsive manner in which I jumped into the defence.

Fancy doing a Mr Bean here and leading everyone else astray!!!

Alvin and the rest of the Aromedics, go ahead, kick my butt, I deserve it!!!!

Cheers,

Kenny

[ken_yg]

Hi Kenny, I was thinking that u must had put the decimal point at the wrong place!:D
I have no doubt on your ability to help to diagnose fish ailments & treatment. U have contributed much in this section & we hope u will continue to assist in the treatment.

Sometimes back, u assured me on safety of PP bombing. Something that I wanted to do (after reading about it from Teck Chye site), but hold back for fear of endangering my aro. With your experience, I proceeded with the PPB. I think I got those anchor worms arrested at last. My aro is eating better now & I have mastered the technique too. Thanks Kenny!:) :) :)

[Isna]

hmmmmm.
no need to apologise kenny:D
no one likes to b fingered out rudely......
u have all my respect bro:D ( but thanks for offering your butt anyway...hehe)
mistakes do happen...
i hate those percentage things.....
believe me, that decimel error has happened before n caused quite a similar stir up....
mayb it's more useful to state it in grams per L.....
1 - 3 g /L = 0.1 - 0.3 %..........more applicable too.

u r absolutely right HongJinBao. if it is truely a bacterial dropsy, immediate anitibotic therapy is warranted:) but the prognosis is often poor......what is muticure??

[Vetduck]

Hi Kenny,

How have you been? Don't worry about it. It was an honest mistake. You advise with the good intention to help. Thanks to HongJinBao for pointing out the mistake. At least we know that arofanatics members are not asleep. :D

Just to clear doubts on the amt of salt to add. Physiological saline(concentration of salt in an aro's body) is 0.9%. Prophylatic dosing of salt is usually between 0.1-0.3%. 0.9-1.0% salt solution can be used as a bath.

I've kept an aro in 1% salt solution for 2 days before diluting out the salt solution gradually without any long term side effects. Only side effect is mild dehydration of the aro, causing some scales to look bruised. With dilution of the salt solution, hydration status was restored & & bruising resolved.

I did that in the attempt to tx anchor worms on my aro. It worked, the anchor worm problem was solved. However I wouldn't recommend it for every other aro, as dehydration may predispose to kidney problems in a already sick fish.

Just FYI, sea water is 3.2%. So anything more than that you end up with salted fish. :D

Skimmer, it'll help if you could provide more info about your aro. However if you aro is not eating & behaving more lethargic than usual or condition is deteriorating, I would suggest not to waste anymore time. Take it to see a fish vet immediately. I've pm you the address of one. Good luck.

[Skimmer]

Hi there,

Thanx 4 al ur reply.

Juz measured the ph and ammonia level. It read at 5.0 ph and 5 on ammonia, didnt realy pay much attention as i had juz gone 4 an operation abt a week ago. The fish is still eating but noticed tat the water condition realy bad. Had juz put in a heater and change 10% water.

How to measure on the 0.1% salt n wat should i do from here.

Thanx

[Hobbit6003]

Hi all,

Sorry for the bleepers, really paiseh lah!!! Anyway, thanks for the kind understanding and support you guys have given me!!!:D Isna, will be too far for you to kick my butt, but I offer Vetduck to do it on your behalf, how's that?:D

Skimmer,

a 10% water change may not be enough, you may try changing another 10%-20% the following day. Do keep on monito

if indeed it is due to the poor water condition, and that indeed it is dropsy, chances are that it is a bacterial infection, the common being pseudomonas or aeromonas. This may be accompanied by a swollen belly due to water retention, a condition known as ascites. How's the appetite of the fish?

for a 0.1% salt concentration, try to add 1gm of aquarium salt to 1 litre of water. (haha, I'm pretty sure i got it right this time:D ) You should also go out there and buy some of the medication for bacterial infection.

I do agree with Isna that if it is dropsy, the prognosis is poor, but don't give up yet, you've got to try!

Do keep us all updated, ok?

Cheers,

Kenny

[limbei]

Originally posted by Vetduck
It was an honest mistake.

u work for IDA or u another cheng hu lang?
IDA was also told to pay singtel millions of dollars for honest mistake
not being disrespectful to anyone but just find it funny to see e phrase honest mistake being used even in this forum

[Skimmer]

hi there,

okie, wil do 20% water change and keep u guys updated but by adding medication, wil it affect the filter system as my is an internal flow system.

Thanx

[Hobbit6003]

Hi Skimmer,

Yes, most of the ani-bacterial medication can kill beneficial bacteria, as ther're of the broad spectrum ones.

However, if the water quality is poor, the beneficial bacteria will most likely have deteriorated as well, so using the medication would not do any much harm than the poor water quality.

Limbei,

Haha...a mistake, however honest it is, can kill you know? No matter what, there's no excuse for making mistakes lah.:)

And yes, I'm still sore abt the IDA thingy, but this is not the forum for me to vent my frustration though.:)

Cheers,

Kenny

[mtoh]

hi Skim,

This dieases cannot be taken lightly, my friends 2 adult Red was kill by it ! Hope this article help...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Protruding Scales Disease
This often occurs when Dragon Fish is young. The adult Dragon Fish seldom gets affected by this disease.

Cause:
a) Events causing extreme temperature changes within the aquarium.
b) Contaminated water.

Symptoms:
Initial stage - Scales tilt at every 5th to 8th scale. Blood traces may be seen at the root of scales. If not arrested at this stage, scales will gradually tilt, redness may appear and the scales will not be able to protect body causing bacteria attacks to the body of the Dragon Fish. The scales may all drop off causing the body to decay and the fish to die.

Cure:
Add coarse salt and increase temperature to 32°C to 34°C. Increase oxygen content in the water and change water (1/4) every 3 to 4 days. Water may be heated prior to change. Add copper sulfate medications to the water.

[Hobbit6003]

Er...I tend to doubt the merits of increasing water temperature when treating a bacteria infection, especially one that is caused by poor water quality. Let me try to explain why:

1. Increasing the water temperature can also help to increase the rate of multiplication of the bacteria. This may hence increase the rate of infection.

2. Increased water temperature can also increase the metabolic rate of the fish, and this may further stressed the fish if it is too sick and feeds poorly

3. Increased water temperature will also decrease the dissolved oxygen concentration, which may affect the fish especially the aro which is very sensitive to DOC level. Furthermore, a decrease of DOC can encourage proliferation of anaerobes, whereby most pathogenic bacteria belong to.

I'd recommend to keep the fish at a constant room temperature of btw 27-30 degrees celcius, that should be fine.

Cheers,

Kenny

[limbei]

Originally posted by Hobbit6003
Limbei,
Haha...a mistake, however honest it is, can kill you know? No matter what, there's no excuse for making mistakes lah.:)


u work in health industry
thus u know better that making mistakes can kill
so its definitely to read after u type
attributing it to being an honest mistake does not help in bringing e fish or patient back to life though it might just make u feel better
no offence or disrespect to aromedics
have a nice day
regards

[Hobbit6003]

Originally posted by limbei


u work in health industry
thus u know better that making mistakes can kill
so its definitely to read after u type
attributing it to being an honest mistake does not help in bringing e fish or patient back to life though it might just make u feel better
no offence or disrespect to aromedics
have a nice day
regards

Hi limbei,

Honestly, I don't feel good making judgemental mistakes like these, but if it is not an honest mistake, i really don't know what to call it?

Yeah, being in the healthcare biz, there's almost zero tolerance for mistakes made. However, like I tell many of my colleagues and juniors, we are not God, we do make mistakes. But if you do make a wrong call, be a man and own it up, take the penalty and don't expect pple to forgive you.

I stand by what I preach.

Cheers,

Kenny

[Isna]

limbei
i don't understand?
why all this attack?
does it make u feel better?
( i bet it does. u must a kick out of all this)

AroMedics is a FREE service.
we do not claim to b qualified fish professionals.
we r not proud ass know-it-all docs who rip anyone off..
we aren't formally trained fish vets
But we do have something to offer!
our experiences, background medical training and patience and good-will to help others....

we r here to learn n share n help, just like everyone else!

no one's perfect mate. even the best surgeon has made numerous mistakes to reach his/her current potential....we r only but humans..Being an AroMedic or a health profession doesn't shield us from mistakes.

so lets enjoy, and appreciate life n our aros....
Lets ALL have a nice day!
i'm just here to help. and believe me, i've learned heaps simply by helping others;) :D

[mtoh]

hi isna & hobbit,

i think you guys are doing a good job ! keep it up, there might be ppl who are much more experience in Aro keeping/medics, but do they have the grace and passion to share and help fellow aro lovers ?

I think you know what i am talking about. Keep up that passion !

cheers

[limbei]

Originally posted by Hobbit6003

Hi limbei,
Honestly, I don't feel good making judgemental mistakes like these, but if it is not an honest mistake, i really don't know what to call it?


dont have to call it anything
mistake is just mistake
just be careful
if i ever make u feel that i was disrespectful to u, then guess u got e wrong idea cos i never intended to
i just feel that mistakes are just mistakes n hence decided to post e above msg to u
no such stuff as honest mistakes cos honest mistakes are wat pple do to cover up
nevertheless, i do agree u have helped many of us understand more abt fish keeping which a lot of us have agreed


to isna, i aint attacking anyone
if u think i am directing this at u, then just too bad that u feel that way
no i dont feel e kick out of this
if u think i do feel happy posting this stuff to u, then so be it
i answer to nobody but myself
enuff said

[Hobbit6003]

Hi limbei,

Got your pt. Ok, let's call it a mistake!:)

Isna, no worries mate, I know limbei meant no malice, he's got his point. It's a matter of his perception, and we should respect that too.

Ok, let's get back to the main topic here, wonder how's skimmer doing? He's just posted in Arotalk that he's got a ammonia problem and I've answered to that.

Cheers,

Kenny

[Isna]

i aint attacking anyone
nah that's cool mate.:D
u just sounded rude that's all...
never once did i feel personally offended....

anyway, enough sweet chatter.
back onto busy aye Kenny?
:D
n thanks for your support mtoh.

[Skimmer]

hi there,

My xback aro recovering liao.

Thanx 2 u guys for the help and advise.

Cheers

[shermie]

bros, its human to err, no one is perfect, and everyone makes mistakes. big mistake or small mistake, if we can live and forget, its all cool. we're all here because of our common interest, so let that be reason enough to be good friends :)

[kelvin78]

My young aro had the exact same symptoms...scales pointed outwards with black patches on the upper body as well.

I believe it must have knocked something and lost one scale....afterwhich prolly some infection took place. The next day the symptoms and black patches showed up. I did the usual water change weekly, set heater at 30 C and used Melafix for 1 week....a lot of improvement since...whew!