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Old 03-01-2016, 07:28 PM   #61
jwhtan
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I think one of the main causes of death immediately after water change is ammonia spike, which tends to happen in a heavily stocked tank.

We must remember that today we are not only treating chlorine, but chloramine as well.
ammonia is a by product when chloramine is treated
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Old 03-01-2016, 07:52 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amiidae View Post
How will you drive to the top under such road condition ?



a) speed as fast as you can and drive near to the edge.

b) slow down and keep away fm the edge as much as possible.


Definitely option b is safer.
interesting but not exactly an accurate analogy hehe. with your analogy, one is purposely taking the risky approach while the other is being overly conservative. plus speeding as fast as possible near the edge is a recipe for disaster, while carrying no potential gain apart from personal satisfaction. while changing water % is not as high a risk as ppl deem IF u use the appropriate amount of AC, IF u take sufficient time to top up water, IF the parameters of new water added is similar enough to prevent shock etcetc, and it can be beneficial if that % of WC is needed to keep ur paramters in check.

i agree smaller more frequent WC would be the most risk free, in comparison to say 50-80% once a week or every 2 weeks. but i'm doing 20-80% every 2 days depending on whether i deem it neccessary, and i dont find it high risk because of the precautions i take. personal choice because i believe more WC increases metabolism = growth rate, plus replenishes certain electrolytes n trace elements that u would otherwise need to spend huge amounts of money on marketed supplements to get. again, i need to stress doing 50-95% WC at one go is not for everyone, do what works for u the best
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Old 03-01-2016, 08:05 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by jwhtan View Post
Joshua, I see u hv not forgotten ur chemistry even after a 10 year break ....
my actual job is at a public aquarium.. so i actually spend more time keeping fish and studying water even though i stopped keeping fish at home hehe.

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Originally Posted by jwhtan View Post
I think one of the main causes of death immediately after water change is ammonia spike, which tends to happen in a heavily stocked tank.

We must remember that today we are not only treating chlorine, but chloramine as well.
ammonia is a by product when chloramine is treated
yup, but most shelf products in the market today all claim to treat chloramine, and some even claim to rid even nitrites. i think the main difference between brands of AC is the actual efficiency of the product in real time vs the recommended dosage.

so what i would recommend to everyone, is not to listen or follow blindly, do actual tests for free ammonia vs total ammonia during WC to see how much dosage of ur AC actually works during your WC. and at the same time be wary of how much ur pH drops by cause it can be quite a substantial amount.
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Old 03-01-2016, 09:53 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shermi View Post
my actual job is at a public aquarium.. so i actually spend more time keeping fish and studying water even though i stopped keeping fish at home hehe.



yup, but most shelf products in the market today all claim to treat chloramine, and some even claim to rid even nitrites. i think the main difference between brands of AC is the actual efficiency of the product in real time vs the recommended dosage.

so what i would recommend to everyone, is not to listen or follow blindly, do actual tests for free ammonia vs total ammonia during WC to see how much dosage of ur AC actually works during your WC. and at the same time be wary of how much ur pH drops by cause it can be quite a substantial amount.
damn agreed..
some are just propaganda post.
just like car: if u have the pocket, no harm going for v power.. if not 95 can do the job.
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:15 PM   #65
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Finally John & bro Shermie mentioned abt treating of choramines resulting ammonia as by product. Most do not understand that ammonia the by product is the most lethal & not chlorine. Getting rid of chlorine is the most most basic of ac. Some ac bind the ammonia but AST claimed it rid ammonia. Those ac that bind ammonia will expect ur filtration sys to clear them out asap b4 they cos harm to ur fishes (which I think is calculated risk) & ph will be stable which most pple think ac that does not fluctuate ph is v gd ac which I personally think other wise.

Let us go back to basic. PH will typically decline with time as nitrification consumes the alkalinity (usually as bicarbonate) & release hydrogen ions into the water. Hydrogen ions causes the PH to drop & loss of alkalinity. Based on this, I suspected that AST in the process of getting rid of ammonia rather then binding them, the PH drop. The scientist that invented AST cfm was so and thats was why buffering agents was added in AST to boost alkalinity. In fact, those high tech intensive food fish farming uses ClorAm-X the main ingrident of AST to control ammonia rather then treating tap water cos they don use tap water. BTW, there r more than only chlorine & chloramines in our tap water.

Based on the above, that is y I said those that do little wc, regardless of wat ac they uses, usually no issue unless their filtration sucks. Those that do 50% or more must be a bit more careful. Only those that do huge wc will kn wat ac is really gd.

We shld not only take ac into consideration if anything happen after wc, like death. The health of fishes, wat type (sensitivity) of fishes, scale or scaless, etc.. Trust me, there r many factors that can cause death. The best part is, whenever I interview hobbyists, they will always said their fishes in great health regardless of appetite, which means each individual perceptions of wat is healthy fish r diff same as wat is gd water. The bottom line is, most do not spent time to read, study & observe but expect the pdt they buy to do miracles.

Last edited by Tay; 03-01-2016 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 03-01-2016, 10:32 PM   #66
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Regards to doing huge WC, initially I disagree with bro Marshy on doing huge wc for our fishes reasons being as stated, causing huge change in water parimeter which will cause harm to our fishes. However, after so many yrs of keeping rays which r heavy bioload fishes, I realised that I am wrong. (To do huge WC or not also depending on wat fishes one is keeping) Monster fishes, heavy bioload fishes, releases lots of toxics into the water, to rid them completely, our normal filtration regardless of how big, will not do the job. Those filtration that Angmo set up, 20k to 50k type (Cos they cannot keep changing water usually reason being water too hard in their country) such sys can sustain with only water top up. Angmo not like us, they really study into water chemistry & they kn wat they r suspose to do. Most local hobbyists hv budget constrain, those rich one also hv , me too, so best cheapest way is to do WC.

How to do proper wc I believe bro Shermie had explained clearly but I doubt most will follow accordingly as I myself had experience with most hobbyist, most dont bother, so I also don kn y they wan keep fishes??? I teach pple to maintain ph only, I vomit blood liao. Cos all don bother la....... this is the main issue here, the issue is not on the fishes or good products.

In conclusion, those pple that I kn like bro Shermie, Marshy & few others who study, read up, observe a lot on their fishes behavior will kn wat product is gd. Those that just use and expect results regardless of other factors, will nvr get their ans.

Last edited by Tay; 03-01-2016 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 04-01-2016, 12:04 AM   #67
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Guys, this is one good thread & reading.
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Old 04-01-2016, 10:29 PM   #68
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I notice true ammonia level during water change, how do we measure that?

If ammonia level is high during water change? How can we reduce it?
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Old 04-01-2016, 10:33 PM   #69
lionheart
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i guess thats where the ammonia removal in some ac products come in.

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Old 04-01-2016, 11:24 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bennyliv View Post
I notice true ammonia level during water change, how do we measure that?

If ammonia level is high during water change? How can we reduce it?
The better AC has ammonia binding capabilities. While ammonia is produced during the neutralising of Chloramine,,the AC will bind the released ammonia to be harmless to fishes while allowing the filtration media to process the bound ammonia.
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