The deluded concept about coconut juice to reduce pH

Originally Posted by zihao

A pm wont correct the wrong idea conveyed to the others though it might only to correct the myth starter.

Cheers.

Agreed, hence posting a thread in aromedics would definitely benefit other misguided ones. Chastising the myth starter doesn't help in enlightening others. A little diplomacy would help. Cheers.

BTW with regards to the topic, white vinegar would be useful to reduce pH. It's much easier to obtain & cheaper too.

Ethanoic acid. Weak acid. Aka vinegar. You probably have to add quite an amount to a 100-150 litres tank just to change a bit pH. Bear with the smell if any. I do not want to go into molecular chemistry and its calculations of pH values as most might just go to sleep. Btw, see no reason to play with pH too much if you are "doing your maintainence" well enough. Some people might go to the extent of adding sodium bicarbonate to buffer the pH so that the changes overtime is minimised. But if you leave your tank water unattended, then you gotta get to arm with pH test kits and other test devices for the respective water parameters. Isn't that easier to just change the water partially when needed? - Food for thought...

[Hobbit6003]

Hi Zihao,

Yup, I gotta agree with you that regular partial water change is the way to go. The problem I see here, is that most hobbyists are just not changing enough water. The amount of 10-20% weekly water change is, IMO, insufficient for a big fish like an aro whose main diet are high in protein. What's worse is that it is usually not the only fish in the tank.

Fish can definitely tolerate a wider range of pH, if your main intention is to keep them alive. Of course, if you're trying to breed them, then that is a different story.

Cheers,

Kenny

I admire both of you and Vetduck for your patience in dealing with individual cases ever since I first seen you all here some time back. Though I wonder if you remember I have been giving advices on many cases till I came to a conclusion that it is better for them to use the search function and many are pretty much archived. But sometimes I will just pop in and reply when I am free from my work.

Indeed, many of them has many other fish in their tank, not to say, they already have something big ones like arowana. I am pretty surprised when for my entire lifetime until now I have not ever use an air-pump just to supply oxygen to the fish, but many here are in that category (no offence). The only time I use an air-pump is for undergravel filter using air bubble displacement method. Generally, if an air-pump is used mainly to supply oxygen, it tends to show over-crowding which is bad for the system. It is indeed a tug-of-war to between how much waste products being produced and how much are being converted away in your setup. I have seen many threads in which the pitiful arowana and her tankmates wiped out due to power trip etc. We should try to attain a well self-sufficient near-to-natural setup, don't we?

Certainly, I am still puzzled why many of the hobbyists whose main intention is to keep the fish alive, dwell so much into pH and other water parameters too. Not to say spend so much money getting test devices. As long you keep in mind what you might introducing into the tank while feeding etc, there should not be too much effort used to monitor the water parameters. I should say, be mindful of what you add and what the internal system can displace this change, and lastly maintaning balance. And upset of this balance might result in a irreversible sharp change. I must emphasize that one need not know too much into water Chemistry and Science to do that. A simple example to quote on overfeeding: You pour one cup of pellets for your arowana, some time after it has been consumed, you noticed half of it uneaten and appeared in your filter system. The next time, you pour one cup again instead of half, because you just hope that it can finish it and grow faster. If you have simply cut down the "input" in this case, that is already a way to maintaining balance. Ask yourself why are there enclosed fish tank systems that are self sufficient and do not need much water change etc for months! The answer is already above, the fish does not know how to discipline themself, they will only give you symptoms when they are sick, but you knows on how to discipline yourself.

For breeding, besides pH and other optimum conditions, there are chemicals that plays an important role in inducing spawning in an artificial environment. I have been laughed at by many when I talked about breeding aros in concrete and not mud ponds and sharing with them what can be done to induce spawning. These chemicals are naturally occuring though absent or very little in an artificial environment. Such as Nitric Oxide (NO) or Nitrous(N2O which is convert back to NO naturally) and many more. Since it is industry secret viewed by some, I should not go too much into it.
(
Reference to:
http://aquanic.org/publicat/state/il-in/ces/kohler.pdf
http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00005/art00005
http://www.hku.hk/rss/rs1999/biol.htm -> "NITRIC OXIDE SIGNALING IN THE NEUROENDOCRINE REGULATION OF PITUITARY FUNCTIONS IN GOLDFISH" - already clinically proven technique
)

[Hobbit6003]

Hi Zihao,

I think we must understand that we are dealing with hobbyists from all levels. At one end, we've complete newbies who are just started out, the intermediate fishkeepers who have fishkeeping experiences, and at the other, those who are in the advanced stage of fishkeeping. I think the latter are really few and far in between.

For the newbies, it is good that we try to teach them the basics of fishkeeping and empower them with the necessary knowledge and tools. For the intermediate fishkeepers, many of them have been learning from experiences, and probably not know the reasons why things are done the way it is, and many would have experienced painful learning processes through trial and error.

Thus, it is for these 2 categories of hobbyists that we've set out to help. By imparting the basics of what we know, and telling them why things are as they are, we hope to inculcate in them good fishkeeping practice. That's because we believe that in telling someone about why things are, it'll be easier for them to remember the how-tos. This will not only shorten one's learning curve, but it'll also go a long way in helping them to solve future fishkeeping problems that they may encounter.

As one advances in the hobby armed with basic knowledge, would he/she then be able to improvise upon such basic fishkeeping methods and adopt his/her own practice.

As for test kits, it is, IMO, an essential fishkeeping tools. Yes, you and I may have kept fishes using our own methods for a long time without a hitch, but if there's a day when something fails, the test kits would come in handy in helping us find out what has gone wrong. Otherwise, we can only rely upon our own experiences in second guessing the problems and this can be a futile exercise if we mis-diagnose. So, where else can we best start to inculcate such practices but the newbies?

I liken test kits that we have, to the diagnostic tools that I have in my clinic. I've still got to rely on my patient's complaints,history and diagnostics stuff like a radiograph, to get hold of a better picture of the situation, before dispensing any treatment or advice.

And yes, everything is about balance, not just fishkeeping. :-) In some of my tanks too, I rely on just plants and good amount of lighting to rid my tanks of nitrogenous wastes, without any filtration system. Other thing I do is, changing of water regularly and avoiding overfeeding. I could do so because I'm armed with the necessary knowledge and experience, and therefore able to better avoid disasters. However, disease still can strike at times.

For the newbies, it is better to start learning from the basics. They need to know why and what to do, and understand the fundamentals. If they do not know what to look out for, they'd not know if the fishes are well or sick. It is hard to ask them to eyeball the tank and tell us what is wrong. Hence the test kits may prove handy in providing us with some clues. Of course, they are not the only thing we should rely on.

Cheers,

Kenny

[Aroboy II]

Well said Bro Kenny. U really take care of all levels of hobbyists.

Yap. Thanks for the comments, Kenny. Your reminder just ring a bell.
I think most will still stare at the screen and don't know what I was talking about most of the time. Pretty sad but it takes more time to bring the details a level down, or maybe I am not good in doing it.

By the way, talking about just diseases. I remember some years back I had brought it up to you about archiving all the diseases and suggested cures. Did it proceed? Well, you have reminded me of what I felt some time ago when I quit giving advises here. Too many repeated questions that can actually be found with the search button. You are still patience enough to go into all levels of hobbyists unlike me. But I think archiving common diseases would pretty much benefit those who don't use the search button and save you time and effort.

Ironically, as long the hobbyist is very well disciplined, all the test kits will be in the bin already. But sad to say, many are still far from that stage. Embarrass to admit, I despise these test kits especially many do not give real gauge of what is going on in the tank. It still go back to the basic knowledge even though one might own many test kits. They do provide readings, but it is the owner that interprets them. But the part I am still bewildered is that, if the owner has the level enough to interpret these readings, then any threatening situations would be avoided in the first place and not to say you need any test kits anymore.

These water parameters I should say the readings are just invisible. But the symptoms due to diseases or abnormal behavoir of the fish would be a better gauge of what is going on. I am certain that many of the hobbyist here do not use these kits, till something happens. And when that happens, it is usually disease symptoms running in. I believe the symptoms are better cause-telling factor. There are many real cases here that the water parameters does not coincide with the cause of the problem.

True enough, that is the usual practice in the clinic. More like a SOP, aka standard operating procedure. Just like those AVA imparts to the farm owners and workers.

Yap, the newbies probably do not where to observe abnormalities in their fish. Maybe the test kits can help by then. Well, I think you and I would always like to start by having a picture as it speaks a thousand words about the fish and its symptoms.

Cheers,
Zihao

Its probably miscommunication where the very first person actually meant coconut husk.

Test kits cost just small money and can last a long time (you only need to use when you sense something amiss). Using test kits just require a small effort and is way better than making guesses however a good guesser you are. I'm all for test kits.

Bingo.................

Originally Posted by lbei

Its probably miscommunication where the very first person actually meant coconut husk.

Test kits cost just small money and can last a long time (you only need to use when you sense something amiss). Using test kits just require a small effort and is way better than making guesses however a good guesser you are. I'm all for test kits.

Juice is far too big a difference to be mistaken as husk. And it is not just easily put the coconut husk into the water; As you know, coconut floats. There is more to it that you have to do.

I wonder you have read the part I expressed my bewilderment. If you are at that level to decipher what the test kits and its readings tell you, you are certainly able to be good enough to avoid all the blunders. Ironic isn't it?