anti-chlorine,chloramine

[Tay]

Those ac that only bind ammonia means ur filter hv to wk extra hard & one must make sure the turnover is sufficient. AC tat just get rid of ammonia instantly will need to take note of ph cos I think removing ammonia will cause ph to drop slightly. Those hard wkg guys maintaining ph ard 7.2 will not hv any issue, those that don bother better take note. As I said, is not the product but the user issue.

[ThomasLim]

So can I say using AC that bind ammonia actually didnt really have much effect that we want for a wc as the bind ammonia will eventually become nitrate again Chloramine become nitrate (with a good filter system)? Is my understanding correct?
For the AC that rid ammonia as well, the only side effect is decrease of pH. So wc using this type of AC will really bring down the nitrate level. Am I right to say that?

[LauLanChu]

AC that binds and rid ammonia any science explanation behind. Binds mean it absorb as of zeolite or make it becomes NH4OH ammonium? Rid ammonia how to do it? Converting to other amine form or make it becomes gaseous form and evaporate away?
Q: If due to emergency I isolate an aro because of fight, having a total new 4 ft tank, top up the tank with tap water and using hypo crystal as AC, only has air stone bubbling no filtration. Check the pH of the new tank the same as the main tank. Transfer the aro immediately, will it survive?

[ThomasLim]

Originally Posted by LauLanChu

AC that binds and rid ammonia any science explanation behind. Binds mean it absorb as of zeolite or make it becomes NH4OH ammonium? Rid ammonia how to do it? Converting to other amine form or make it becomes gaseous form and evaporate away?
Q: If due to emergency I isolate an aro because of fight, having a total new 4 ft tank, top up the tank with tap water and using hypo crystal as AC, only has air stone bubbling no filtration. Check the pH of the new tank the same as the main tank. Transfer the aro immediately, will it survive?

If last time, I will say can survive as pH same (and if temp also same). But now if as discussed above- the AC will cause the chloramine in water to bind and become ammonia which the tank cannot handle as is not cycled yet, I am not sure. How much chloramine is in the tap water? Will it be so much that the binding cause an ammonia spike?

[DragonFireSG]

Originally Posted by ThomasLim

If last time, I will say can survive as pH same (and if temp also same). But now if as discussed above- the AC will cause the chloramine in water to bind and become ammonia which the tank cannot handle as is not cycled yet, I am not sure. How much chloramine is in the tap water? Will it be so much that the binding cause an ammonia spike?

Some people calculate chloramine in water by testing ammonia ppm after AC is added

The chloramine molecule is broken up, liberating free ammonia that will turn up in tests. Raw tap water should have no ammonia in it. Therefore, the ppm of ammonia found after the chloramine has been broken down can be used to calculate the ppm of chloramine.

[shermie]

As what dragonfire said. similarly to those who pmed me, the only way to be sure whether ur AC works by binding ammonia or removing it or to measure how much nitrates will end up as a by product is to test your ammonia after a WC. or measure the chloramine level in ur tap water.

if u're really worried about nitrates then use a prefilter/RO/DI for WC and make sure u replace the carbon catridges frequently. but imo nitrates isnt a big issue when it comes to aros ... proper husbandry n dilligent WC should be enough to keep your nitrates in a decently healthy range.

[shermie]

Originally Posted by LauLanChu

AC that binds and rid ammonia any science explanation behind. Binds mean it absorb as of zeolite or make it becomes NH4OH ammonium? Rid ammonia how to do it? Converting to other amine form or make it becomes gaseous form and evaporate away?

this is an extract i copied n pasted from reefkeepers.com :

Removing Chloramine From Water: Chemical Reducing Agents

There are two primary ways to remove chloramine from tap water. The first is through the use of inorganic reducing agents such as thiosulfate. Thiosulfate (S2O3- -, which actually looks like -OSO2S-) is an inorganic chemical that is typically dissolved in water, usually as the sodium salt. When added to water containing chloramine, a reaction takes place, destroying the chloramine. The electrochemistry of sulfur compounds can be complicated, and different researchers report different products of this reaction (extrapolated from reactions with chlorine itself, not chloramine). The products have been suggested to include sulfate (SO4- - and HSO4-),10,14 elemental sulfur (S),10 and tetrathionate (S4O6- -),11-13 and may depend to some extent on the conditions, including the pH and the relative amounts of compounds present. John F. Kuhns (inventor of Amquel below) has indicated that he believes that the reaction resulting in sulfate is the most frequently observed. The reaction for this process is shown below:

S2O3-- + 4NH2Cl + 5H2O à 2SO4-- + 2H+ + 4HCl + 4NH3

Thiosulfate is also equally suited to dechlorinating free chlorine in water, and it has gained wide use in marine and freshwater aquaria. Unfortunately, the ammonia that is produced as a result of the reaction is still toxic. Consequently, thiosulfate alone is not always adequate for eliminating toxicity from chloramine.

Other products, such as hydroxymethanesulfonate (HOCH2SO3-; a known ammonia binder15 patented for aquarium uses by John F. Kuhns16 (sold as Amquel by Kordon and ClorAm-X by Reed Mariculture, among others) can be used to treat chloraminated water because they both break down chloramine and bind up the ammonia.

The reaction of ammonia with hydroxymethanesulfonate is mechanistically complicated, possibly involving decomposition to formaldehyde and reformation to the product (aminomethanesulfonate; shown below).15 The simplified overall reaction is believed to be:

NH3 + HOCH2SO3- à H2NCH2SO3- + H2O

Even more complicated is the reaction of hydroxymethanesulfonate with chloramine, or chlorine (as Cl2 or HOCl). In this case, the products that are formed have not been established.

So are these useful products? That is, do they eliminate all toxicity from chloramine and provide none of their own, either by themselves or through their degradation products? I cannot answer that question. Almost certainly, using them is better than not using them if there is chloramine in the water. Is the toxicity eliminated for even the most sensitive larval invertebrates? Again, I don't know. Without knowing what the degradation products are, or without detailed testing on a variety of very sensitive invertebrates, I don't know how one would conclude that they are satisfactory (or not). Maybe such tests exist, and if so, I'd be pleased to hear of them. In the end, my recommendation is to remove chlorine and chloramine in other ways, such as through an RO/DI system as described below.

Removing Chloramine From Water: Activated Carbon

Another method for removing chloramine from water is with activated carbon (as is contained in most RO/DI systems). In a two step process, the carbon catalytically breaks the chloramine down into ammonia, chloride, and nitrogen gas

C + NH2Cl + H2O à C-O + NH3 + Cl- + H+

C-O + 2NH2Cl à C + N2 + 2Cl- + 2H+ + H2O

where C stands for the activated carbon, and C-O stands for oxidized activated carbon. In this case, as was found for thiosulfate, the product includes ammonia, which is not bound significantly by activated carbon. Consequently, treatment of water with activated carbon will need to be followed up by some method of eliminating the ammonia.

In the case of a reverse osmosis/deionizing system (where carbon is usually part of the prefiltration prior to the RO membrane), the ammonia is partially removed by the reverse osmosis system. The extent of removal by the RO membrane depends on pH. At pH 7.5 or lower, reverse osmosis will remove ammonia from 1.4 ppm-Cl monochloramine to less than 0.1 ppm ammonia. The DI resin then removes any residual ammonia to levels unimportant to an aquarist.

AFAIK most products that "rid" ammonia works on the same principal as amquel.

Another extract taken from seachem forums :

he active ingredient in the original AmQuel formula is known chemically as sodium hydroxymethanesulfonate, HOCH 2 SO 3 Na. The active part of the molecule can be graphically represented as:

The hydroxymethane- end of the molecule reacts with ammonia to form a non-toxic, stable water-soluble substance which is acted upon by the bacteria in biological filtration.

This reaction effectively removes the toxic ammonia from solution. Even in water of low pH (<7.0) the above reaction proceeds to completion. This is because even at pHs below 7.0 there is always some "free" ammonia (NH3) and the AmQuel will scavenge it from the water. This is why AmQuel works faster at higher pH's and in saline waters.

The substance formed is stable, and testing has shown that even in an aquarium or pond without a biological filter, the ammonia is not released back into the water. Also, unreacted AmQuel is stable, and unless removed with water changes or granular activated carbon, it will be available to react with ammonia until it is exhausted in the water to which it was added. This is why AmQuel has proven so useful in shipping fishes. Excess AmQuel can be added to the water to act at a later date without adverse effects on the fish or invertebrates.

The -sulfonate end of the AmQuel molecule reacts with both free-available chlorine, known properly as hypochlorites (OCl-) and combined-available chlorine (chloramines). In the first instance nothing more than harmless chloride ions (Cl- ) are produced, and in the latter instance chloride ions are formed and the freed ammonia instantly reacts with the hydroxy-methane end of the molecule.

Originally Posted by LauLanChu

Q: If due to emergency I isolate an aro because of fight, having a total new 4 ft tank, top up the tank with tap water and using hypo crystal as AC, only has air stone bubbling no filtration. Check the pH of the new tank the same as the main tank. Transfer the aro immediately, will it survive?

using only hypo crystals it means the ammonia from chloramine will be released into the water, so with no filtration it means ur aro will be subjected to ammonia poisoning... and how bad it is will be determined by the ph. some fish will survive, some will die, since diff fish have diff tolerance levels.

if u use a proper AC that "rids" ammonia, then u'll be good to go.

[shermie]

Originally Posted by ThomasLim

If last time, I will say can survive as pH same (and if temp also same). But now if as discussed above- the AC will cause the chloramine in water to bind and become ammonia which the tank cannot handle as is not cycled yet, I am not sure. How much chloramine is in the tap water? Will it be so much that the binding cause an ammonia spike?

in laymans terms...proper AC removes chlorine from chloramine... n then binds the remaining ammonia to non-toxic / inert form. so your fish is in no direct threat of ammonia poisoning.

it's those ACs / sodium thiosufate that only removes the chlorine and doesnt react with the ammonia released, that has the potential to cause a ammonia spike.

[LauLanChu]

Thanks Shermie for the detailed explanation. I read that bind and rid ammonia is through some chemical reaction to convert ammonia to non toxic form. Maybe rid and bind is the same, depending on how the AC put it for marketing purposes.

I am always puzzle there are people keeping fish without filtration, just air stone, pH > 7 , 3 - 4 days 100% change interval, and the fishes are doing very well. They are not less sensitive fish than rays. Immune to ammonia poisoning? Or ammonia poisoning thingy is too over sell by marketing gimmick?

[shermie]

Originally Posted by LauLanChu

Thanks Shermie for the detailed explanation. I read that bind and rid ammonia is through some chemical reaction to convert ammonia to non toxic form. Maybe rid and bind is the same, depending on how the AC put it for marketing purposes.

I am always puzzle there are people keeping fish without filtration, just air stone, pH > 7 , 3 - 4 days 100% change interval, and the fishes are doing very well. They are not less sensitive fish than rays. Immune to ammonia poisoning? Or ammonia poisoning thingy is too over sell by marketing gimmick?

problem is most ACs dont release the chemical formula so we can only spectulate through tests and experience. so far from what i gather most ACs etiher convert the ammonia to non toxic form, and leave it to the biological filtration to handle, or to bind it to a stable inert form where it's neither toxic to fish nor gets removed by biological filtration. to remove ammonia totally from tapwater it'll be though electrolysis or catalytic ion reactors / filters or DI/RO etc... which i personally find overkill.

as long as i test no free ammonia directly after a WC it's good enough for me.

as for fish kept with no biological filtration, it's possible because diffierent fish have different tolerance levels. while most literature say anything above 0.5ppm ammonia can be potentially fatal, i guarentee there's many ppl who have 5ppm and up and their fish show no apparant signs of poisoning... because they're adapted to it. but when u introduce new fish (from a tank with good water parameters) to such a tank the new fish would usually die within hours. and even if the fish look perfectly fine, there will still be irreversible damage done to their gills etc, so maybe everything goes well for a year or 2 or more, then all a sudden the fish dies... and then ppl blame it on sudden death syndrome.

and u also need to factor in bioload of the tank. 1 aro in a big tank doesnt need filtration if constant WC is done... and many aro keepers do that.. the older generation actually prefer this method of keeping aros. (low water level..airstone or sponge filter... some wc now n then...) remember that ammonia is less toxic at ph 7 n up, and if u have no biological filtration the ammonia isnt converted to nitrites which is more toxic at higher ph... so basically that's what's happening in those tanks u mentioned (at least according to what i can explain scientifically lol) plus if we use the current ACs that bind ammonia, it would also react with the ammonia in the tank if there's surplus.

basically fish are hardy in general... they can adapt to different water parameters if it happens gradually... that's why u see fish alive in tanks with say 4.5 PH and 5ppm ammonia. but survive n healthy are 2 very different things.