Nip&Tuck by DrArk/Eugene

[shiokmc]

Originally Posted by |JTBC|

Looking good on the pic.
Possible to show a video update? TIA.

YouTube Video

Pete- i really have no idea what caused DE for this babe... bought it like that already... However, i am tanning 24/7 on my comm... and again; another Theory surfaces...

Aros in a comm would very likely NOT develop DE any comments on this?
All my reds had no DE from the beginning... all sharing same diet, same water conditions & of coz all subject to intensive tanning

Yeah, I saw the fish at the lfs, the eye was drooping a little then.

Aros in a comm would very likely NOT develop DE any comments on this?
All my reds had no DE from the beginning... all sharing same diet, same water conditions & of coz all subject to intensive tanning

Good theory, maybe it's because of the swimming posture? A loner could develop an awkward posture by bending it's dorsal? In a comm, this would not happen as the fishes are looking at other fishes constantly to avoid being nipped or bitten?

[menthol28]

Originally Posted by Spakase

The fact that the aro can recover from DE in an FGT supports the argument that environmental factors are very strong in bringing on DE. Nevertheless, we can't discount the gene factor and even diet as contributing factors to DE, because we do know that many reds subject to the same environment and diet also do not develop DE. But certain practices do seem to encourage DE, one of them could be tanning, there are a few theories on this as well. Haiz, this DE thingy is a very controversial one!

genes might be 1 of the factor but imo the percentages are lesser compared to enviroment and habit of aro. lets take myopia(short sighted) in human as a analogy, most human are born with perfect eyesight but develope myopia because of enviroment and habits... but studies have found that genetic also played a part in developing myopia, they found certain percentages of child inherited from parents. just like DE , myopia has many proven factors with diff theories. till now we humans still dun have a 100% foolproof way to prevent myopia, we only can correct myopia with surgery or prefent it from worsening by using glasses or contact lens. so i think most hobbyists like me, have already more or less accepted that we cant prevent DE in aros, becos there are so many factors which are beyond our knowledge or control, we can only treat it like we treat myopia... wear glasses/contacts( put aro in fgt/pond), surgery( cut fats). btw diet is also listed as a unproven factor in myopia.
my command of eng is quite pathetic, so i often cant put my actual thoughts into context... hope you guys understand what i`m trying to say

[|JTBC|]

Originally Posted by shiokmc

Thanks for sharing the vid, bro shiokmc.

I think you should proceed for Plan B (if u want to improve further). Sorry to say I still can see the different between left and right eyes though it has improve a bit. or May be it needs longer time to correct.

If there are many cases proven that a FGT/pond can improve/correct DE, the enviromental and behavioural factors are more convincing then the genes factors. IMO.
And if these are the factors then by removing fats/tissue from the eye will not help or rather it will be back again. Just my view nia.

[D24]

Hi guys,

Would like to share what I have learnt through my years of Aro keeping. I'm not professing that this is the Bible truth, but it is based on my interactions with many hobbyists, breeders and professionals in this industry. There will always be many theories, and sometimes, we have to analyse what has been said and then decide for ourselves it if is logical.

In short, it should never be based on what one person/breeder said or experienced.

Our resident veterinarian, Vetduck, wrote:

Originally Posted by Vetduck

As far I as know, you'll never see DE in aros that are in ponds. Only the ones in tanks develop this problem. Hence it must be an environmental problem. We have seen very obese aros that do not have DE, so the fat behind the eye is not the contributing factor to DE.

There are aros in tanks that also do not & never develop DE while others do. Taking all these into consideration. DE is probably a result of a combination of environmental as well as a behavioural factors.

Also spoke to aquatic veterinarian, Dr Frederic Chua of Allpets & Aqualife Clinic, who advised that DE is due to muscles controlling the eye that has weakened. He also mentioned that all fishes have soft tissues (some call it “fats”) around the eye.

Aros naturally look forward and upwards as they are surface dwellers. In a normal environment, Aros uses both their eyes to see.

Droopy eyes happen mostly in glass tank environment as the Aro is forced to use only one of their eyes as most tanks are covered, leaving only one open side (the front of the tank facing us). Aros are creatures of habit and they will have their own preferred swimming direction and favourite spot.

Therefore, most of the time, the eye that is facing the open side of the tank will almost always face the same side and the other eye will be facing the covered side. This behaviour may cause the former eye to look down where there are likely to be reflections, etc. Therefore, after a prolonged period of looking downwards, the muscles are weakened, thus causing the eye to droop.

We also noticed that Aros kept in community tanks are less likely to develop droopy eye and this is because Aros are territorial fishes and they all have to “watch their backs” all the time.

Some farms also did studies on this problem and concluded that it is an environment issue. In fact, Mr Tris Tanoto of PT. Munjulprima Utama also posted this in his website: “The advantages of using bare aquarium are that the arowanas' eye will not drop and the arowanas would swim straight.”

4th paragraph: http://www.munjulprimautama.com/company.html

Quote "Ultra Red's special markings are red blood colour and thick scales almost 90% or up to 100% covered with red colour. The colour also covers the face and tail, the tail blooms like flower; it is called 'HONG HUA' (Red flower). Even in young Ultra Red measuring 20-25 CM we could see the premium quality. Mr. Tris Tanoto purposely put his Ultra Reds in aquariums without any background and bare aquarium. Sometimes with only white lamp shining or sun shine we can see the real colour of the Ultra Reds. This is the best way to show the real quality and colour of super red arowanas. The advantages of using bare aquarium are that the arowanas' eye will not drop and the arowanas would swim straight. In Japan, there are arowana contests using aquariums with no background to show who's super red arowanas' colour is the best and of course the winner is the Ultra Red." Unquote

I had several questions to the person who “operated” on the Aro and am disappointed that he has read the questions, but chose not to answer the them. A professional will always clarify their customers/potential customers doubts and give them assurance.

In fact, I have more questions which I hope he can answer so that all of us can be enlightened.

Regarding the results of the “surgery” to “remove fats from around the eye”, If it is fats, then it should work for all aros right? Why is the result not consistent? Why does the result vary?

We were told “to wait till the wound join back to see the result”. Could it be that the incision made to the droopy eye could have caused irritation to the eye and triggered the muscles to react? Therefore, time is required for the muscle to regain their strength and that is why we don’t see an immediate physical change. Can we rule out this possibility?

As to the droopy eye condition recurring after some time if the Aro is kept in the same condition, is this due to the fact that the irritation caused by the incision, which made the muscles react is now gone and therefore, the same problem recurs – ie: the muscles controlling the eye starts to lax again?

Dr Peter Burgess, who has written several books on fish care and diseases said;

Quote “Some Arowana websites suggest corrective surgery to remove excess fat from around the eye, but such dubious surgical intervention should be discouraged – and never attempted without proper veterinary training and anaesthesia” Unquote.

D24

Good information on DE, we have learnt a lot from D24's post. This is what forumming should be, statement of facts and experience learnt from others.
But having said that, it brings us back to the recommendation, which is keeping a bare tank (meaning no wallpaper on the back?) - may not go down well with many hobbyists.

Therefore, most of the time, the eye that is facing the open side of the tank will almost always face the same side and the other eye will be facing the covered side. This behaviour may cause the former eye to look down where there are likely to be reflections, etc. Therefore, after a prolonged period of looking downwards, the muscles are weakened, thus causing the eye to droop.

This situation sounds like the loner in a tank, stationery most of the time.
Could risk of DE be reduced by making the aro become active, eg using wavemaker, or having frisky tankmates for the aro to chase?

[TS70]

Originally Posted by D24

Aros naturally look forward and upwards as they are surface dwellers. In a normal environment, Aros uses both their eyes to see.

Droopy eyes happen mostly in glass tank environment as the Aro is forced to use only one of their eyes as most tanks are covered, leaving only one open side (the front of the tank facing us). Aros are creatures of habit and they will have their own preferred swimming direction and favourite spot.

Therefore, most of the time, the eye that is facing the open side of the tank will almost always face the same side and the other eye will be facing the covered side. This behaviour may cause the former eye to look down where there are likely to be reflections, etc. Therefore, after a prolonged period of looking downwards, the muscles are weakened, thus causing the eye to droop.

since the aro in a tank will be swimming to and fro...does this mean that both eyes should droop?

[D24]

Most importantly, Aros should have an environment that enable them to use both eyes to focus naturally - look straight and up. Eg: aros raised in ponds do not have droop eye.

In fact, another environment that may cause droop eye is tanning tank – wtt (fibreglass tank). In this tank, very strong lights are used to shine down at the fish. As the lights are very bright, the Aro is also not able to look up, which is their natural behaviour.

Also understand that some believe that droop-eye is genetic. Dr Burgess wrote that this is not the case...

Quote "A study of captive arowana strains (red, golden and green colour morphs) from a Singapore farm found no significant genetic defects. Also, if inbreeding were to account for drop-eye , this condition would show up in very young arowanas and affect both eyes, which doesn’t fit with the evidence. Inbreeding is also unlikely to explain why some wild-caught osteoglossids have developed drop-eye in captivity." Unquote

D24

The fact is that silver and reds are more susceptible to DE than goldies.

[shiokmc]

80-90% improvement on Right-Eye

YouTube Video

decided to leave in my tank...