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Old 15-01-2013, 01:37 AM   #1
EvolutionZ
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Default Budget Pico tank, possible?

Hey guys, few months ago i had plans to start a 2ft marine tank but i got caught up with some personal stuff and end up having to scrap the idea.. Im still keeping my freshwater set up and now i got a spare 34L tank (31x31x36cm front curve tank) im toying with the idea of a Pico/Nano marine(only intend to keep easy corals like Zoas, mushrooms and some small fishes) but on a budget set up.. and i hope to reuse as many stuff as possible. so is this possible? need some advice here...

Tank :
31x31x36 front curve tank from seaview. This tank is only 4mm thick im wondering if its safe to use for marine? used for 2 - 3 months only on a flat surface though..

Filter :
This tank currently is being filtered by a GEX L size hang on filter, should be 400 - 500L/hr filed with seachem Matrix. Most likely i'll use this filter but do i need the matrix to be inside? or should i put a bag of seachem purigen in?

Lighting :
I currently runs a Aquazonic 6.72 watt LED light.. 24 white(10k) and 4 acthnic blue.. i doubt it will be enough for zoas and mushroom.
I noticed the Beamswork 6 x 3W (4white, 2 blue) seems to fit my tank well and not that expensive too. is this good enough?

Wavemaker :
Hydor Koralia Nano comes to mind straight.. At 900l/hr is this enough for flow together with my hang on filter?

Chilling :
Tank will be fan operated.. i have a Hexagon water filtering system meant for drinking installed (high pH water at 8+)and im wondering if i can use it to top up water and do water change... the filtering system do have carbon block and resin.

Skimmer :
I've read many nano/pico set ups and most advice to go skimmerless and just do more water change.. how often should i change my water to keep the tank healthy?

I hope its possible to set up a budget nano/pico tank.. need as much advice as possible to make my dream come true of owning a marine tank!!!

Thanks!
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Old 15-01-2013, 08:52 AM   #2
xersion
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yes you can.. no need skimmer and weekly 10% change of water will be more then enough.. of course no over feeding also and low bio load
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Old 15-01-2013, 09:21 AM   #3
EvolutionZ
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Hey thanks for ur advice.. So let's say my bioload gets higher.. I just do more water change or increase the frequency of water change will do?
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Old 15-01-2013, 09:40 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvolutionZ View Post
Hey thanks for ur advice.. So let's say my bioload gets higher.. I just do more water change or increase the frequency of water change will do?
better don't over stock.. 31cm is about 1 ft maybe keep a pair of swee swee clown fish will be nice
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Old 15-01-2013, 10:14 AM   #5
illumnae
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Hi Bro,

Don't know if you saw my other thread but I'm currently running a 34 Litre nano tank as well. Used to run a 24 Litre one last year. Just some comments below in red (in your quoted text below) sharing some of my experiences.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvolutionZ View Post
Hey guys, few months ago i had plans to start a 2ft marine tank but i got caught up with some personal stuff and end up having to scrap the idea.. Im still keeping my freshwater set up and now i got a spare 34L tank (31x31x36cm front curve tank) im toying with the idea of a Pico/Nano marine(only intend to keep easy corals like Zoas, mushrooms and some small fishes) but on a budget set up.. and i hope to reuse as many stuff as possible. so is this possible? need some advice here...

Tank :
31x31x36 front curve tank from seaview. This tank is only 4mm thick im wondering if its safe to use for marine? used for 2 - 3 months only on a flat surface though..

Size isn't a problem, you just need to adjust your livestock/filtration etc accordingly. 4mm may be a little on the thin side. I would recommend you get some salt mix water and fill the tank full and let it stand for 2 weeks to see if it warps. If it doesn't then you're good to go.

Filter :
This tank currently is being filtered by a GEX L size hang on filter, should be 400 - 500L/hr filed with seachem Matrix. Most likely i'll use this filter but do i need the matrix to be inside? or should i put a bag of seachem purigen in?

You can use this filter for water flow, but you need to make sure to work with your scape to ensure good flow throughout the entire tank and minimize any dead spots. at 400-500L/hr, you are at about 15x turnover, which should be fine if you're not keeping the higher end corals and livestock that require higher flow.

I would say that Seachem Matrix is not required. Most of your biofiltration needs can be taken care of by the live sand and live rocks (please buy quality live rock). You can consider placing phosphate remover like RowaPhos (works better in a reactor, but can work in a fine mesh filter bag as well) or Seachem PhosGuard (some people don't like this product as it's made of an aluminium compound and they're scared it will leech into the water - personally I think it's fine). If there's space, you can add a nitrate adsorber too


Lighting :
I currently runs a Aquazonic 6.72 watt LED light.. 24 white(10k) and 4 acthnic blue.. i doubt it will be enough for zoas and mushroom.
I noticed the Beamswork 6 x 3W (4white, 2 blue) seems to fit my tank well and not that expensive too. is this good enough?

I use the Beamswork 6 x 3W and I like it. If budget is low and you intend to keep low demand corals only, the Beamswork 9 x 1W will work too and is cheaper. However, it will make it hard for you to "upgrade" corals in future.

Wavemaker :
Hydor Koralia Nano comes to mind straight.. At 900l/hr is this enough for flow together with my hang on filter?

In short, yes. I'm using a Hydor Koralia Nano + 480L/hr return pump (from IOS) in my setup and it's perfect for me. However, Hydor Koralia Nano may be hard to come by. C328 doesn't carry it according to auntie, and the only place I know that has it (AquaMarin) only had 1 piece left 2 weeks back, which I bought. You may want to consider a Tunze 6015 instead, which is double the flow rate but about $10 cheaper than the Hydor. However, I'm not sure if it'll create a tornado in your tank. I personally didn't want to risk such a high flow in my tank, but I know of people with bigger tanks who go up to 50x volume in flow rate, so it's up to you.

Chilling :
Tank will be fan operated.. i have a Hexagon water filtering system meant for drinking installed (high pH water at 8+)and im wondering if i can use it to top up water and do water change... the filtering system do have carbon block and resin.

Cooling the tank by fan will result in high evaporation rate, possibly even up to 1-2 litres a day. What resin does your filter use? If it is DI resin (which I doubt, because DI exhausts very fast) then you should be fine. However, if water comes out at high pH then I doubt it, as DI water should be 7. You need to top up evaporation with pure water (ie RO/DI) or you run the risk of introducing unknown substances into your tank, which may lead to a tank crash or algae bloom.

The "economical" option most people use if you don't want to invest in a RO/DI or DI system is to use NTUC brand pure drinking water. It's 2x 1.5L bottles for about $1.

For your tank, it may be worth considering getting a Crystal Pro DI system. It's about $100 if I remember correctly and the resin filters about 250 litres of water before it exhausts. Refill cartridge should be about $30+. So after 1 refill, it will be cheaper than NTUC water ($100 can buy 300 litres of NTUC water)

I personally went with the NTUC brand water. However, I don't use fan chilling so my evaporation rate is lower. I top up only about 2-3 litres a week, so at $1/week it's pretty low budget for me.


Skimmer :
I've read many nano/pico set ups and most advice to go skimmerless and just do more water change.. how often should i change my water to keep the tank healthy?

You can get by skimmerless if you are hardworking and do 10% water change every week (provided your bioload isn't too high). If you find your needs increase (e.g. high bioload, or you go into sps with high calcium consumption), you can increase to 10% 2x or 3x a week or even daily. Don't do too large water changes, as marine inverts tend to be sensitive and large changes in water parameters will annoy them.

If you want to play safe, the Dymax iQ skimmer is pretty cheap. However, you will need to be hardworking and change the limewood airstone every 1-2 months. Use Sander #2 available from C328 at about $2 to replace. If you don't change the airstone regularly, it will clog up and your skimmer will not work, which may cause algae blooms (like what happened in my 24L tank - I was lazy).

However, skimmer is by no means required in such a small tank, as long as you keep up with your water changes.

One extra cost that you may want to consider is to use bacterial products to lower nitrates/phosphates. I am using the Prodibio Nano Reef kit on my tank. 1 dose of a few vials every 2 weeks, and the kit lasts 12 weeks at a cost of about $50. Not sure if it's within budget or not for you, but it's a good system to keep nitrates and phosphates low (in conjunction with the phosphate remover in your HOB filter).


I hope its possible to set up a budget nano/pico tank.. need as much advice as possible to make my dream come true of owning a marine tank!!!

All in all, a budget nano/pico marine tank is very much possible. But you need to exercise alot of discipline and self control. Keep up with the water changes and limit your livestock. Don't impulse buy any livestock (even corals), as your available bioload is very low (especially without a skimmer). As recommended by bro xersion, in a skimmerless setup, even a pair of clowns will be pushing the limit of the tank. Don't get tempted into adding any more than that.

If you maintain discipline, I believe you are capable of maintaining a swee swee nano marine tank with your proposed setup


Thanks!
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Old 15-01-2013, 11:52 PM   #6
EvolutionZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xersion View Post
better don't over stock.. 31cm is about 1 ft maybe keep a pair of swee swee clown fish will be nice
I was thinking for livestocks, probably 1 pair of clown, a goby and shrimp pair (the one that bonds very well) and a hermit crab.. am i asking too much?


i really appreciate your long and details reply bro illumnae! i do have some other questions and hope you'll be able to help..

Filter :
say i remove seachem matrix and replaced it with a bag of seachem Phosguard and a bag of PURA NitrateLock (small amount for both) to reduce both phosphate and nitrate, will this be enough?

wavemaker :
I noticed BOYU do make small wave makers.. any idea if they are of any good?

Chilling :
The Hexagon water filter in my house uses Ion-exchange Resin, is this the same as the normal one reefers use? if not im thinking of putting some carbon and resin into a bag and run it in a pail of water with a pump for 24 hours before i do my WC? will this make the water DI?

Skimmer :
Where can i get this Dymax IQ skimmer? If it can keep my tank healthier i dont mind investing in this prodibio nano reef kit.. does marineLife at clementi have this? near my school at SP

Once again, thanks alot for your help!!
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Old 16-01-2013, 11:08 AM   #7
illumnae
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Hi bro, no problem at all... marine is definitely very different from freshwater and alot of preparation is needed to do it well. Happy to share what I've discovered (both via research and via pocket-burn experiences).

My responses below again in red.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EvolutionZ View Post
I was thinking for livestocks, probably 1 pair of clown, a goby and shrimp pair (the one that bonds very well) and a hermit crab.. am i asking too much?

If you're diligent in keeping up with wc and replacing your phosphate/nitrate removers regularly then you may be able to get by with your planned bioload.

I would recommend staying away from hermits though. Cute as they are (i've had a scarlet one and a blue legged one and they are REALLY cute), they tend to eat up your snails, and snails are really the best clean up crew you can have.

The goby/shrimp pair will be really cute in a nano where they can be easily observed. I had a Randall's goby/tiger pistol shrimp pair and they were the cutest things in the tank! the shrimp would be constantly digging all day long making sure its cave was in tip top condition...they would also "move house" overnight, digging new places all the time. The goby would stay in the cave with the pistol shrimp, but got excited every time I fed the tank and would come out to "play" every now and then too.


i really appreciate your long and details reply bro illumnae! i do have some other questions and hope you'll be able to help..

Filter :
say i remove seachem matrix and replaced it with a bag of seachem Phosguard and a bag of PURA NitrateLock (small amount for both) to reduce both phosphate and nitrate, will this be enough?

I think it would be, but you need to make sure you replace them regularly when they are exhausted. Only way to know for sure if they're exhausted is to regularly test your tank using test kits (that's an added cost, unfortunately). If you lower your bioload, there's less margin for error.

wavemaker :
I noticed BOYU do make small wave makers.. any idea if they are of any good?

Worth considering imo, especially if there are no alternatives. Not sure where to buy them though, C328 auntie told me she didn't carry the nano wavemakers for Boyu.

Chilling :
The Hexagon water filter in my house uses Ion-exchange Resin, is this the same as the normal one reefers use? if not im thinking of putting some carbon and resin into a bag and run it in a pail of water with a pump for 24 hours before i do my WC? will this make the water DI?

Ion exchange resin can be many things. But if it's an "exchange", it's unlikely to be DI. For example, you see "water softener" resins sold often. Those are ion exchange resins - they absorb calcium ions and release sodium ions instead. The actual TDS of the water doesn't change, the "softness" of the water just increases due to the reduction in calcium ions. DI resins absorb ions and don't release ions in return (ie. no "exchange"), that's why TDS will drop to 0.

You can buy DI resin and run it in a pail with a pump until TDS reaches 0, which would make the water DI water. I know some marine hobbyists do this especially when doing a fresh setup to save time (fill tank with water, run DI resin in tank with pump until TDS is 0 then add reef salt). However, it's alot more troublesome than just buying a DI system. You can DIY your own DI system by buying filter housing from gereld_hor and buying cartridges from madpetz. A typical DI system (3 stage) would have sediment -> carbon -> resin. If you want, you can do 2 stage carbon -> resin but you water will have sediment still from tap.


Skimmer :
Where can i get this Dymax IQ skimmer? If it can keep my tank healthier i dont mind investing in this prodibio nano reef kit.. does marineLife at clementi have this? near my school at SP

Dymax iQ skimmer is sold at C328, about $20+. However, as previously cautioned, the effectiveness of this skimmer depends on your discipline in replacing the airstone every 1-2 months. The limestone airstone provided with the skimmer itself sucks, and the airstone gets clogged with debris/algae within 1-2 months.

The prodibio kit is useful in keeping nitrate and phosphate levels low. Google search it and you will find quite some positive sharing (google "prodibio biodigest"). I don't think Marine Life carries it - I get mine from MadPetz @ Sin Ming.

However, the good news is that there are other similar products out on the market. One of them is the Polyplab system, which Marine Life does carry. The downside to Polyplab is that you need to keep it refrigerated once opened, and dosing is daily/weekly while Prodibio system is once every 2 weeks dosing. I've heard Polyplab is a better product though. Fish Channel boss showed me one of his LPS tanks that is running skimmerless and nutrient levels are kept down only via the Polyplab system.


Once again, thanks alot for your help!!
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Old 16-01-2013, 11:42 AM   #8
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Chilling :
Meaning i'll simply get a filter housing, carbon and resin cartridges and upon setting up, run water through it and the water that comes out of it will be DI? Just that simple? never use such filters before...

Skimmer :
Im currently looking at some suitable skimmers for my tank and have chanced upon this Taam Rio Nano skimmer.. its a hang on filter + skimmer.. last time c328 used to sell this.. i might get this to replace my GEX filter though..
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Old 16-01-2013, 11:56 AM   #9
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DI: Yes it's that simple, but you need to make sure you run the water through the system slowly so that the carbon/resin has enough time to react with the water. Test the water that comes out - if it's 0 TDS you're good to go.

Skimmer: Never used the Taam skimmer before. However, I know bro Wing.feng uses the Red Sea Prizm HOB skimmer on his 2x1.5x1.5 and he says it works well for him. You need to scout around for good deals on this skimmer though, as brand new it's not cheap. At the price of a brand new Prizm, I'd rather top up a $20+ more and just get a Bubble Magus e3
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Old 16-01-2013, 12:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by illumnae View Post
DI: Yes it's that simple, but you need to make sure you run the water through the system slowly so that the carbon/resin has enough time to react with the water. Test the water that comes out - if it's 0 TDS you're good to go.

Skimmer: Never used the Taam skimmer before. However, I know bro Wing.feng uses the Red Sea Prizm HOB skimmer on his 2x1.5x1.5 and he says it works well for him. You need to scout around for good deals on this skimmer though, as brand new it's not cheap. At the price of a brand new Prizm, I'd rather top up a $20+ more and just get a Bubble Magus e3
i'll look into the DI filter.. noticed madpetz do carry 2 stage carbon resin filter as well.. will get a TDS pen too.

I went to look up measurement of the E3 and sadly it cant fit my tank.. the Rio skimmer only cost $30+ if im not wrong.. most review say not fantastic but for that price its better den other skimmer of the same price.

As for ur prodibio kit, how long does the whole kit last for ur 34L tank?
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