Genetic history of present day crossbacks

Originally Posted by PT

Now, I wonder if any forumer here remember the "Axanthic" Arowana a few years back? Is this considered a hybrid or crossbreed?

Neither, I believe it's a rare genetic pigmentation mutation, occurring in pure bred Arowanas, which can be pass down generation to generation.

[cucumber]

Originally Posted by Sas

Buy heater lor! So simple! Hehe... Are u in bandung now?

Weekdays in Jkt... weekends somewhere near Lembang.

[cucumber]

Regarding the article, I agree as far as the it says current generation of crossbacks are crossbreeds. Whether which one more beautiful, which one have better gold tone and the definition of these characteristics are certainly subjective and judgemental.

Suffice to say as there will be no perfect fish. As you crossbreed, you will gain some positive and lose negative features. This is what HUMANS hope to achieve. However, you also gain other negative features and lose other positive features as well when you crossbreed. Nature is fair in this way. You may gain body size and body shape but you lose colour. You may gain colour but you lose something else.

We must remember that in the beginning, there was a lack of knowledge and the situation was worse than now. In the beginning, breeders were happy just to be able to breed asian arowana, which type didn't matter that much (the license was more important). In the beginning, people also thought that there was only 1 type of red arowana. In the beginning, arowanas were identified by where they came. In the beginning, things were really different.

In the end, we must remember that breeders are businessmen 1st and breeders 2nd. If you don't survive as a business, no way are you going to survive as a breeder. We must remember that in a pond, there are both productive and non-productive fishes. Both also need to eat and swim. Call me a sceptic, I find it more plausible to believe that the original impetus towards creation of crossbreeds stems more from economics and less on trying to create a more beautiful fish.

Originally Posted by lincolngoh

Yo, you have been warned...

Haha.... anything lah...

Originally Posted by cucumber

In the end, we must remember that breeders are businessmen 1st and breeders 2nd. If you don't survive as a business, no way are you going to survive as a breeder.

I find it more plausible to believe that the original impetus towards creation of crossbreeds stems more from economics and less on trying to create a more beautiful fish.

Yup the market decides. $ talks & BS walks. Customers talks with their money, so farms have to cater to the buyers concept of beauty if they want the money.

It's no use lamenting the lost of the original or pure strain if it's not commercially viable. I've heard GH being called a fad for 1/2 a decade. But today they still command the highest prices.

[sebarau]

Originally Posted by Spakase

Any idea which farm? I ever asked King Kong about this, but was told the original xb no longer exists.

One of them that i know off is BLC arowana and the other one, i'm not sure about the farm name, but own by an old timer ..known as Andak Talib among arowana community here in Malaysia. Andak have 1 pond of WC caught MG from Sg Beriah, one of the Sg Kerian tributaries.. produce fries only twice a year.. and the last time i heard..the price is about RM 1k per inch..most of the time fully book by LFS..

Yeah, it's not easy to be a breeder in SG in the first place, the cost is already a huge obstacle. Even after setting up a farm, the fishes may not breed, or not as much. Hence, I also sensed that economics drive the breeding more than anything else, resulting in all these crosses. Having said that, I observed that MGs seem to be preserved quite well in Malaysian farms, and not only talking about King Kong and Sianlon, but other less well known farms also seem to have pretty good MGs (with gold intensity). However, increasingly, I've seen quite a lot of TY, eg in XianLeng Batu Pahat in Malaysia emerging. With the trend of importing xbs from SG, there is bound to be a scattering of the seeds of SG farms all over Malaysian farms, hence increasingly, I believe the MG would grow to be extinct if the big Malaysian farms assimilate SG xb stocks on a mass basis. In other words, the MG becomes the same as the xb in SG farms. Personally, I feel that the costs are far too high in SG to breed aros and with such a high SGD policy, exports are at a great disadvantage, it is better to sell them locally and take the monies in SGD. The lease on the farm, electricity, running costs are so high relative to Malaysia, it's quite hard to be profitable unless you have large scale breeding successfully. My guess is that sales is not too much of a problem as there is still a shortage of xbs worldwide. It's the pairing and harvesting that needs to be sped up and production of fishes for sale. I don know if this has also encouraged cross breeding or hybridisation as it has been mentioned that it is a lot easier to pair hybrids or crossbreeds, I got this info somewhere from one of QH's news release. the other reason is the hunger for gold like arowanas resulting in enhanced RTGs which is a sure winner.

Good well thought information, Spakase

One of them that i know off is BLC arowana and the other one, i'm not sure about the farm name, but own by an old timer ..known as Andak Talib among arowana community here in Malaysia. Andak have 1 pond of WC caught MG from Sg Beriah, one of the Sg Kerian tributaries.. produce fries only twice a year.. and the last time i heard..the price is about RM 1k per inch..most of the time fully book by LFS..

Thanks, will check further.

Since there is some kind of controversial yet interesting issue started by my thread here that has sprouted out 2 schools of conflicting thoughts i.e. HYBRID or CROSSBREEDING, MALAYSIAN GOLDEN or Malayan Golden, Tong Yen etc, and everybody is eager to know the answer, so it is my obligation and responsibility to substantiate and to seek for the correct answers with evidence rather than with mouth said. I shall present here the data and the fact for all the members who wish to know the answer to judge and conclude. After the truth and seemingly correct answer revealed, any member can continue to further discuss if he so wishes.


I am very sorry that I am adamant that there is nothing wrong with the using of these terminologies and names. If it is wrong then I am afraid many of the pioneers cum recognized world class authorities, authors and experts’ reputation and credibility would be at stake and history re-written. We based some of our findings and write-ups esp. on the history, the terminologies and the names used from some of their books, write-ups and websites. We had never claimed ourselves as experts. We only did some research and fact findings for own use and readily to be shared with friends. So if I am wrong then these big names would have made big blunders to be accused for misleading. I am unable to furnish the lengthy list but I can give two of the names for the moment and the links to their write ups on the arowana history and industry for all of you to examine and seek for the answer personally if you so wish. One is Mr William Goh, owner from Dragon Fish Industry and the other is Mr Kan Tien Siong of Panda Aquatic Centre; both are supposedly the undisputable experts cum pioneers from Singapore familiar to all here, I presume. If they also make mistakes, then who else can be more qualified and right?


For the convenience to some members, I have extracted some relevant parts and lead here to save your time searching. In my personal opinion, it is worthwhile to go through these great articles and write-ups of these experts and also other recognized old timers to enrich your knowledge on the hobby.


Please bear in mind; they may also have conflicting and deviating opinions, ideas, experiences and conclusions due to different environment and exposure. But to me, they are not far from rights. So it is up to you to use your wisdom and intelligent to analyse and draw your own conclusion. Cheers! And have a good day and happy CNY.


http://dragonfish.com/ 20/02/2003
Mr William Goh, co-author for numerous arowana books.
Introducing Rose Gold Xback Golden. 20 Feb 2003
Hello there,
This is merely to introduce to you all, our newest production of the ROSE GOLD XBACK GOLDEN hybrid fishes. Since these fishes had spawned today for the very first time, we thought it appropriate to share with you all, something new about them.
Thus, when you are buying such hybrid fishes, you will find it really thrilling to see its growth day by day, and anticipating in the meantime, how it will eventually look like.
A F3 generation Red/Xback hybrid, waiting to be transferred to another pond. Note the almost fully crossed back, at the age of 3 and a half years.



http://www.arowana.com.sg/FrameSet_enjoy.html
Please also read KNOW THE TRUTH under BREEDING AROWANA
The World of Arowana
We can classify them according to these 4 species:
1. Indonesian Red-tail Gold Dragon Fish
2. Malaysian Gold Dragon Fish or Malayan Bonytongue
3. Indonesian Red Dragon Fish
4. Green Dragon Fish

Co-author: AROWANA (published by Tropical Fish Hobbyist)
Our founder and president, Mr. Kan Tien Siong has been successfully breeding Arowana for the past 15 years. He is the co-author of a comprehensive book about Arowana published byTropical Fish Hobbyist, the worlds largest and most prestigious publisher of aquarium related books. He was invited to speak on Dragon fish at public seminars during Aquarama '95 and Aquarama '97.
We hope you could find our website informative and helpful during your experience of keeping asian arowanas.
Thousands of fancy names and prices. Are there really so many asian arowanas in the world?
Have a look at the 'Confusion and Misinformation in the Global Trade of Asian Arowanas'.
Chili Red, Blood Red, Metallic Red... Are they really different from each other?
Have a look at the 'Facts about Red Arowanas'.
Breeders, Traders, Wholesalers and Retailers. Who is who?
Have a look at 'Who is who in the trade of asian arowanas?'.
Hybreeding is an important technique to develop new better varieties. However, misusing it will lead to the opposite.
Have a look at 'Upgrading Hybrid Practices' and 'Degrading Hybrid Practices'.
　

Again . . . very informative. Cheers for sharing!