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Old 01-12-2006, 01:55 AM   #21
zadrian
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Soap was just kidding man....

I was almost at my wits end...PH is now at end of the scales...8.6...reddest already...maybe even 9 as the sacles all end at 8.6

I use those colored gravel...should be neutral. But I have about 3-4 pieces of those grinite look alike rocks/large pebbles almost 2" which I had leftover from flower potted plants, mainly black and white, 1 is brown. Mainly for decoration and holding the seaweed wafer down.

I did not use any coral or calcium based rocks in my bed or filter. I use the standard black sponge and carbon filter. Mine is the normal 501 top hanging waterfall filter that comes with these low-cost tanks

i dunno is the salt is acidic or alkaline...

But when I added the moss wall 3"x12" to the back, I placed my giant shrimps into a small pail (wine ice bucket) and added about 2 teaspoons of salt...the shrimps came alive when I put them back into the tank....I worried that might be "hui guang fan zhao".

i'll try to add pics of my "headache tank"
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:13 AM   #22
zadrian
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please do not flame me...i took 3 photo sessions, 1 in the morning 5am, 1 ard 8am and the last one at 1am (just now). The 1st shot got flash as I forgot to off the flash....
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Old 01-12-2006, 02:20 AM   #23
zadrian
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Here's the tank at 8am...sunlight...

1st shot was with table...2nd shot onwards on lamp coz didn't use flash

Last edited by zadrian; 14-02-2007 at 02:21 AM.
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Old 01-12-2006, 03:41 PM   #24
the_r0ck
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You know what, you go and do a test on your tap water. If the reading is not 7 (or around there), then your test kit is faulty.

Anyway so far it is very hard to conclude the cause of your pH issue. But like what I keep saying, don't add salt unless you really have to (like disease outbreak).

The rocks you have inside, you can do a test, apply a little vinegar onto the rocks and observe for any chemical reaction. If there is, well, then you know the problem

Oh, you can take out the carbon pads in your filter, you don't usually use them for planted tanks.
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Old 03-12-2006, 02:55 AM   #25
zadrian
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PH is 8.6....
Tap water is 7.2 (Used strips, the attached one takes 1/2hr to show)

BTW, one armour shrimp died ....

I'll try to upload more photos....the site was down the past 2 days
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Old 04-12-2006, 05:44 PM   #26
|squee|
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Forget about pH. I don't know why everyone is so nuts about pH and kH values in a planted tank. No point... pH and kH only come into the picture if you intend to do breeding imho.

A planted tank is better when it's filled up with more plants. Double or better yet, triple the amount of plants you have in there. Keep the lights on a timer set to turn on for 10 hours daily. What time it turns on/off doesn't matter, as long as the tank gets 10 hours of light. Ambient lighting doesn't count.

No salt in a planted tank of whatever kind, no matter how good it's supposed to be for your fish. In a planted tank, if you take care of the plants, the plants take care of the fish for you.

How come you have 2 fans on your tank? 1 is enough imho, you don't need the temperature to be so low unless you're keeping plants that require especially low temperatures.

How many fish have you put inside there? If it's more than 10, reduce to 10. I'd personally keep only up to 7 or so fish in there, even lesser if it's tetras.

You have black brush algae (aka BBA) because you've been changing water too frequently and you have inconsistant CO2 levels due to the CO2 tablets you are adding. Let me tell you something about those tablets: Not worth your money. If I were you I'd go CO2-less. Much less trouble, but slower plant growth. If your tank goes CO2-less, you needn't do water changes at all if the amount of plants inside that tank is high.

Now you should know that in a planted tank so many things can be the cause of your troubles, and some of these troubles contribute to more troubles... If I were you actually, I'd restart this tank. Give away/sell the existing livestock, throw away the sand. Buy much more new plants, 10 pots for example. Get sand from a reputable LFS (like those mentioned frequently in this forum) for example Lapis sand. That one is definately trouble-free. Set up the tank properly this time. There have been threads on how to set up a planted tank properly. Search for posts by plantmania, or by the_r0ck. His every post is of quality so you can trust his posts.

Good luck!
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Old 04-12-2006, 05:53 PM   #27
|squee|
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BTW, I have read but still dun understand water cycling !
I plan to start a 1.5ft tank soon...can in layman terms tell me what went wrong in my steps ?
1) wash gravel and dry at least 1/2 of them
Wash gravel, no need to dry. After all it'll be wet
2) mix fert with dry gravel and place in tank
Put a thin layer of base fertiliser followed by a layer of gravel that is twice the height of the base fertiliser.
3) cover fert with gravel and washed fine sand
Don't need fine sand... why complicate things? Just base fert and a substainable layer of gravel.
4) add water (I use bottled distilled water, have about 30L ready)
Use tapwater. Singapore's tapwater is good. Distilled water can cause nutrition problems. Pure water isn't always good
5) put plants in (mainly hydrilla, long furry plants, moss on pieces of wood, "tao gay" like short plants on metal gauze, short plants on metal gauze that I bend to make a small bridge for shrimps or light-shy fishes & shrimps/crabs). Cannot find the thread that helps identify plants...
More plants = better tank.
6) Wait a few hrs till water is clear, add dark water + salt (me a bit kiasi)
Don't need to add blackwater and salt. Take care of plants = plants take care of your fish automatically.
7) I would throw in a few fishes from my 1ft tank, most probably ballon pastillas (quite ex fish but cute) & a few small fishes such as mosquito and tetras
Limit yourself... too much fish isn't good. Too much fish also causes algae problems.
8) Fish no die after 24hrs....in goes the shrimps, crabs and almost what I can see at the shops....
Control... rojak livestock = rojak tank = rojak mind (aka headache). Keep to just fish and shrimp, and not too much also.

The liquids & meds I have at home (*denote brand "ocean free")
1) clear water* (only when water is cloudy...after use will have a WC)
Don't need to use... take care of plants = water clear
2) Salt (bought a 500g pack...should last 1yr or more the rate I using)
Don't need salt. Seriously.
3) Medi blue for white spots (2 fishes died of it the day I set up my present tank....used twice and no fishes got the spots anymore)
4) dark water*
Don't need blackwater. Seriously.

See how I've tried to limit the number of variables that can contribute to problems in your tank. By doing so, when you want to solve problems it's so much easier.

I have a whole range of plants from Grass to moss to spiky/furry long plants at my disposal. Got friends that will spare me else I can get it from the nearby aquarium.
That's good, more plants is better.
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Old 04-12-2006, 08:41 PM   #28
blackBRUSHalgae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by |squee| View Post
Forget about pH. I don't know why everyone is so nuts about pH and kH values in a planted tank. No point... pH and kH only come into the picture if you intend to do breeding imho.

A planted tank is better when it's filled up with more plants. Double or better yet, triple the amount of plants you have in there. Keep the lights on a timer set to turn on for 10 hours daily. What time it turns on/off doesn't matter, as long as the tank gets 10 hours of light. Ambient lighting doesn't count.


Good luck!
This is the most misleading advice I ever heard

Not just on plants or planted tanks, PH and KH values will dramatically affects the water chemistry in the water, thus in turns, it will affects fauna too.

Take Ammonia for example:

NH3 + H2O <=> NH4OH <=> NH4 + OH

The percentage of Ammonia in a solution with a given N concentration changes dramatically with PH. Typically, there is a 10 fold increase in ammonia for every 1 unit increase in PH as NH4 converts to NH3 in the above equilibrium reaction. For example, if the PH increases from 7 to 8, the % of N that is NH3 increases from 0.33% to 3.3%, while the % of N that is NH4 correspondingly falls from 99.7% to 96.7%. Thus the higher the PH the greater the NH3 concentration and the toxicity of a given concentration of inorganic nitrogen.

And the fluctuation on PH that causes Ammonia to rise is very likely the toxic that is killing his fauna.


And for setting up a planted tank, it is so easy by just planting tons of plants and give it 10hrs of light each day???

An aquarium that is thriving beautifully is a very complex ecosystem within the tank. It is not that simple by just planting lots of plants and giving it ten hours of lights daily. Lighting, micro/macro nutrients and CO2, when administered at any level from low tech tank to high tech tank, have to be in harmony in order for a planted tank to thrive.

For low tech tank, I suggest you pick up Diana Walstad's book called Ecology of the Planted Aquarium, which not only applies on lowtech but also on high tech tank, is an awesome book that discuss in a broad spectrum on planted tanks. For Dosing of micro and macro nutrients in a high tech tank, you can check out Barr's estimated index

there is more links that I cant come up with at the moment, will post later.
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Old 04-12-2006, 09:09 PM   #29
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I do agree with Terence (squee) on certain aspects of his case.

pH can be a problem as the toxicity of N increase (especially over 7) but generally from a pH range of 6-8, with a good bio-filtration and high plant mass it is largely safe. Just like cichlid tanks with pH levels of 8 and zero plant mass, they rely on a mature establishment of biological filtration to handle the ammonium.

KH is an issue as plants generally do not thrive well in waters of high KH. When CO2 is administered then the KH needs to be highly monitored and made sure to have sufficient buffering capabilities.

Diana Walstad herself has written that (with her own emperical evidence) plants take in raw forms of ammonia (and variants) and to extrapolate that, plant mass is highly important. Tom Barr himself advocated that it is imperative to have sufficient plant mass as when the plants grow the algae won't. I am quoting him (not word for word, I have to admit) on this.

My notion is that so long as the pH/KH is not at the extremities and the tank is supported by good biological filtration, it is considered ok. Some will be very particular about the 0.1 increase in pH but I feel in the bigger picture so long as it is a safe range then it is fine.

I'm honestly sure Terence is more familiar with Diana Walstad and Tom Barr than alot of people, I myself picked up numerous good tips from him on such issues.

This is a very good topic, hope to see more developments and discussions.
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Old 04-12-2006, 11:57 PM   #30
PeterGwee
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While it is true that NH3 is more toxic at higher pH, getting way anal with the values of pH does not get you anywhere in solving the problem. pH/KH are just values used to determine the amount of CO2 in water and nothing much else. pH in non-CO2 tanks can and will rise during the day as the CO2 is being used up during photosynthesis (The max pH it will reach depends on the alkalinity.). While the pH rise can increase toxicity of NH3, the plants assimilate that as a plant nutrient as well. It make sense thus to pack the new tank with as many plants as possible so as to assimilate all possible trace of NH3. Adding emergent plants like duckweeds which has no trouble in getting CO2 from the air would help as well.

Focusing on plant health will do you nothing wrong and the notion is true that good plant health equals healthy fish.

Regards,
Peter Gwee
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