When or Why do reds turn RED?

Originally Posted by Ronald

This is the kind of thread tat I like to see in this forum....Bro.

To me Red No3 is out....it's likely a mixed breed, maybe 'cham' tio Grade 2 reds...

Wat in terst me is in your opinion, by adjusting environment, diet and all the other related factors, does Red No2 have a chance to become like Red No1?

if 2.5 yr and below got chance...

above tat I dun have confidence...tats y I said the max is play to light orange

change background...will help abit...

change food...enhance water will bring out the colors but want to go to blood red abit difficult leh...

actually the easier thing to test is to subject the No.1 red to condition 2 and condition 3 and see the diff...u will then understand my statement of "gd reds under wrong conditions will not be the better red"

[Panther]

Originally Posted by kagemaru

gd summary...my england too long never used...sorri never go England study so dunno how to write properly..

but u are right...the geis of my findings is on the chromatophores...instead of telling ppl genes...its easier if u play with a palette of water colors

easier to demonstrate the effect of colors mixing around

Your england also very powerful lah...dun humble...

I think what I left out is the diet part. This, i think is the way you toggle the chromatophores. It's like feeding MP and other foods high in carotenoids will enhance the red/orange coloring of the aro. What I don't understand is in the conditioning of the other non-red base chromatophores. Of course, we can use natural foods like spirunila, spinach mixes and such for blue based colours...

Are colour enhancers the only way to go to achieve the best display of colours?

[Panther]

Originally Posted by kimkuan

for the lighting part...i think different lights do makes a different on the aros...imo....

Care to elaborate how so apart from the fish looking diff (red intensity) when the light is on? My guess is unless where you are coming from is the variance in the light spectrum that will change the ratio of the colour balance...but the science of it i also dun understand....

Originally Posted by Panther

Care to elaborate how so apart from the fish looking diff (red intensity) when the light is on? My guess is unless where you are coming from is the variance in the light spectrum that will change the ratio of the colour balance...but the science of it i also dun understand....

i also dun understand....cos i believe in order to bring out the true colours of aros...we need to simulate the nature environment habbitat of the aros... whereby there will be sunlight penatrating to the water... if we keep aros in the tank and on a normal FL light does it simulate the same effect it gets from the sun?? as for lighting part i think bro kage is the best person to answer your doubts! sorry my england is like shit!

Originally Posted by Panther

Your england also very powerful lah...dun humble...

I think what I left out is the diet part. This, i think is the way you toggle the chromatophores. It's like feeding MP and other foods high in carotenoids will enhance the red/orange coloring of the aro. What I don't understand is in the conditioning of the other non-red base chromatophores. Of course, we can use natural foods like spirunila, spinach mixes and such for blue based colours...

Are colour enhancers the only way to go to achieve the best display of colours?

nope I dun promote color enhancers...I believe in going nature...

I tried feeding all sorts of foods and there are some which are beneficial and have impact on a change...whether its for the fertility or the color patterns I still need to segregate their differences...

Spiriluna works to a certain extent but rarely noticeable unless applied in stronger concentrations

There were a set of other things which my overseas sifu played with...in terms of absorption of XXX to reset the color cycle...sorry this is not info I can shared out...not my own findings

Lights is a stimulants like I mentioned in previous threads...but I consider it as an external stimulants against neuro stimulation...in fact there is a portion on hypnosis of red to induce hormones in my master script but this part not easily accomplished...error may result in unknown consequences..

it will stimulate the red to self adjust the composition of chromatophores, just the same when u are hypnotise by someone who induce u to do certain things u normally wun do...

let me try...red coloration and why??

my guess is relatively brownish reddish water they thrive in the wild, to conceal and prevent predation from top and side view...survival instinct which evolve this red coloration???

Originally Posted by kagemaru

Put up this topic for discussion:

Since a member pm me asking this question, I repost the contents and get a general opinion on it

Camo? Breeding colors? Or otherwise?

Camo... can't be. Orangy Red and green is not the best camouflage, and the young will probably need more camouflage than a 3ft monster. Evolution doesn't happen for aesthetic reasons to human in any animal.

Breeding colors... it has been proven that fish can't really see red, especially in depths more than 3 ft, so why red? Even if aros are surface fish, it's still not much of a reason to be red to breed... if so, then the yellow reds will nvr find mates in a breeder's pond?
Some reds turn red at 2 yrs old...some reds in msia zoo turn red at 9 yrs old...some at 9 - 10 yrs old still orange...Why? Why? Why?



Any experts care to comment?

(btw genes is a obvious answer and shouldnt be one of the answers)

hi sifu,

let me try using my basic knowledge.

partly due to the thousands of years the Reds were in their natural habitat....where due to the water (peat, leaves, roots, food, etc of the rivers) this historic fish got plenty of red pigments already in their lifeline....or bloodline.

when young....these red pigments are not yet manifest.....and how many years it takes to manifest depends on which part of the rivers they come from generations ago....consider also their surrounding water they live in now....say our tanks or somebody's ponds....or bred and sold from the origins say example IndoReds.

another known way to help arowanas get red colour faster is to use tanning lights to manifest those red pigments given to them by those rivers....generations after generations.....

Originally Posted by Goofy

let me try...red coloration and why??

my guess is relatively brownish reddish water they thrive in the wild, to conceal and prevent predation from top and side view...survival instinct which evolve this red coloration???

Cannot say wrong...partial correct

CAMOUFLAGE COLORS...followed by a release of stress when they are placed in tank...due to the elimination of their predators..hence colors showed up

[vic]

good info in technical term.... Explaining how colour is the way it is in science.

My two cents...

Actually the term "red" is our own understanding only...what about orangy red...the one Ronald posted...can it not be a breed by itself too?? It is only our term that we grade it as lousy red...but in truth the fish gene is such and could be another type of red aro altogether.

To side track abit on the lighting part....

I felt light do play an important part in the stimulation of colour of fish too...sunlight, artifi light etc etc. Its the wavelength thats the key.

Allow me to share what I found few yrs ago from a U-professor...this is her email replied to me.


Dear Victor,

I am very busy and will therefore not be able to delve deeply into
your issues. However, I have conducted a quick search on the general
issue and am attaching some of the abstracts that came up.

Best wishes,
Barbara Demmig-Adams

A) Fish and photoprotection: The articles below suggest that
compounds other than carotenoids provide UV protection

1)
CAROTENOIDS, PHOTOPROTECTION AND FOOD WEB LINKS IN LAKE BAIKAL
GREEN J, KOSLOVA T
FRESHWATER BIOLOGY
28 (1): 49-58 AUG 1992

Abstract:
1. Carotenoids were extracted from macrophytes, sponges, amphipods,
fish stomachs, fish livers, fish ovaries and zooplankton in samples
collected from various depths in Lake Baikal.

2. Acetone extracts from macrophytes showed a ratio of absorption at
wavelengths of 430 and 665 nm consistently in the range 2.1-2.5.
Sponges from very shallow water (1.5 m) showed a similar ratio, but a
sponge from 25 m gave a ratio of 6.6, indicating a reduction in the
concentration of chlorophyll relative to carotenoids.

3. Extracts from amphipods gave some support for the photoprotection
hypothesis, with lower concentrations of carotenoids in
amphipods from the deepest water.

4. Some fish took high concentrations of carotenoids into their
stomachs, but the concentrations found in their livers and ovaries
were very much lower. Fish appear to be one of the carotenoid sinks in Lake Baikal.

5. Plankton samples showed an apparent inversion, with the highest
concentration of carotenoid in the deepest sample, but this was a
result of the sinking into deep water of the filamentous diatom Melosira.

2)
Tolerance of an albino fish to ultraviolet-B radiation
Fabacher DL, Little EE, Ostrander GK
ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE AND POLLUTION RESEARCH
6 (2): 69-71 1999

Abstract:
We exposed albino and pigmented medaka Oryzias latipes to simulated
solar ultraviolet-B (UVB) radiation to determine if albino medaka
were less tolerant of UVB radiation than medaka pigmented with
melanin. There was no difference in the number of albino and pigmented
medaka that died during the exposure period. Spectrophotometric
analyses of the outer dorsal skin layers from albino and pigmented
medaka indicated that, prior to exposure, both groups of fish had
similar amounts of an apparent colorless non-melanin photoprotective
substance that appears to protect other fish species from WE
radiation. Our results indicate that albino medaka were as tolerant
of UVB radiation as pigmented medaka because they had similar amounts of
this photoprotective substance in the outer layers of the skin.

Author Keywords:
fish, medaka, melanin, outer skin layers, photoprotection,
photoprotective substance, pigment, skin pigmentation, tolerance,
ultraviolet-B radiation, UVB radiation

3)
Microspectrophotometric analysis of intact chromatophores of the
Japanese medaka, Oryzias latipes
Armstrong TN, Cronin TW, Bradley BP
PIGMENT CELL RESEARCH
13 (2): 116-119 APR 2000

Abstract:
To investigate the possible photoprotective role of chromatophores in
fish, the absorbances of four types of intact chromatophores in adult
and larval Japanese medaka mere analyzed using
microspectrophotometric techniques. The absorbance spectrum of each
chromatophore class was obtained from 300 to 550 nm. The absorbance spectra of intact leucophores, melanophores and xanthophores were very similar to the published absorbance spectra of the isolated pure pigments
contained in each chromatophore type, pteridines, melanin and
carotenoids or pteridines, respectively. Based on these absorbance spectra,
leucophores and melanophores should provide the most ultraviolet CUV)
photoprotection to fish since the compounds they contain, pteridines
and melanin, correspondingly, have strong absorbances in the UV
region of the spectrum. Xanthophores containing carotenoids are not
likely to provide much protection to fish from UV-induced damage
since carotenoids have low absorbances in the UV range. Xanthophores
containing colored pteridines, however, may provide somewhat
greater UV protection to fish, since pteridines absorb more light
than carotenoids in the UV portion of the spectrum. The relative
frequency, coverage and thickness of these two types of xanthophores should determine how much protection xanthophores as a chromatophore type mould provide against W-induced damage.

__________________________________________________ _____________

Barbara Demmig-Adams
Professor
Department of Environmental, Population, and Organismic Biology
Ramaley N122
University of Colorado
Boulder, CO 80309-0334

[vic]

Second part of her reply to me....


B) Fish and carotenoid-based coloration: The literature (see only a
few examples below) suggest that intense carotenoid-based coloration
may communicate vigor and health - since carotenoids have been shown
to stimulate the immune system.

1)
Influence of various dietary synthetic carotenoids on bio-defence
mechanisms in rainbow trout, Oncorhynchus mykiss (Walbaum)
Amar EC, Kiron V, Satoh S, Watanabe T
AQUACULTURE RESEARCH
32: 162-173 Suppl. 1 DEC 2001

Abstract:
This study examined the influence of different carotenoids on growth
and some immune indices in rainbow trout. Six semipurified
casein-based diets were formulated to contain one of three different
carotenoids: astaxanthin, canthaxanthin and beta-carotene, at 100 mg
kg(-1), each of them with vitamins A, C and E either added or
omitted. The two control diets contained no carotenoids and were
either with or without the vitamins, Rainbow trout weighing about 140 g were fed the diets for 9 weeks. Specific growth rate, feed:gain ratio and
nonspecific immune parameters were determined. Growth and feed
conversion were similar among the groups. Immune parameters like
production of reactive oxygen species by head kidney leukocytes and
plasma total immunoglobulin levels did not vary with the treatment.
Serum complement activity in both beta-carotene groups and the
vitamin-containing astaxanthin group were significantly higher than
both the control fish. Serum lysozyme activity in the vitamin-containing
carotene and astaxanthin groups were significantly different from both
control groups, Phagocytic activity was also high in the
vitamin-containing beta-carotene and astaxanthin groups compared with
the controls. For phagocytic index, in addition to the foregoing groups,
the vitamin-containing canthaxanthin group gave better results
compared with the controls. The vitamin-containing astaxanthin and
beta-carotene groups also exhibited better nonspecific cytotoxicity
for the peripheral blood lymphocytes at all effector-to-target ratios. Thus,
among the carotenoids studied, beta-carotene and astaxanthin elevated
humoral factors such as serum complement and lysozyme activity, as
well as cellular factors such as phagocytosis and nonspecific cytotoxicity. In the presence of the vitamins the carotenoids exerted a greater influence on the bio-defense mechanisms of rainbow trout.


2) THE BREEDING COLORATION OF MALE 3-SPINED STICKLEBACKS
(GASTEROSTEUS-ACULEATUS) AS AN
INDICATOR OF ENERGY INVESTMENT IN VIGOR
FRISCHKNECHT M
EVOLUTIONARY ECOLOGY
7 (5): 439-450 SEP 1993

Abstract:
A necessary condition of most models of intersexual selection
requires that secondary sexual traits are costly so that cheating is
prevented. If the conspicuous breeding colouration of male three-spined
sticklebacks (Gasterosteus aculeatus L.) is such a handicap, it must
involve costs. I examined the energetic costs of the breeding colouration by
varying the energy contents of the daily food supply among five groups
of sticklebacks over a 10 week period. The nutritional carotenoid
level, i.e. the colour pigment used in the breeding colouration, was
constant for all fish. Both the increase of their condition factor and the
condition level they finally achieved correlated positively with the
food ration of the groups. Individuals whose condition increased during the
experiment developed a more intensive red colouration. However, a
direct correlation between food quantity and the red breeding colouration
reached at the end of the experiment did not exist. Nevertheless,
given the limitation of pigment availability, there was still variation in
the breeding colouration and the costs for the metabolism of the
colouration were sufficient to render it an honest signal: a female stickleback
can assess a male's condition and condition change over the past few
weeks by the intensity of the colour of his blue eyes (which is not
based on carotenoids and whose pigments were therefore not controlled
in the food) and his red jaw, respectively. How much an individual
male fish invests in increase of length and increase of condition
(which correlate negatively with each other) seems to be, at least partly,
his own strategic decision, which could have important consequences
in the competition for female mates. It is eventually this decision that a
male stickleback seems to signal with his red jaw.