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Old 03-08-2005, 12:23 PM   #11
zihao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hitsugaya
I have this concept, although i never own an arowana, but i believe that the cause of droop eyes, is due to the diet & space.

1) Wild arowana do not consume food everyday, not everyday they get to find food, thus they are not kinda of overfed every single day.

2) Wild arowanas have plenty of space for them to swim / (exercise) thus the fats in the body should be lesser. which i find droop eye is kinda of fat deposits.

I believe that because of the limited space that we restrict domestic arowanas and the insane amt of food we give ( we always pamper our fishes do we? ) it may cause the droop eye prob.
Yes, there is a writeup on fat deposit giving droop eyes.
 
Old 03-08-2005, 12:34 PM   #12
zihao
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Originally Posted by Vetduck
I'll have to disagree that diet is the main cause of drop eyes. I've seen obese aros with perfect eyes. All the aros I've owned, I feed them well. Some do develop drop eyes while others don't.

I've noticed that the more inquisitive aros that tend to swim to & fro the front of the tank looking out tend to be the ones that develop drop eyes.

The way the eyes are set also has a part to play. Aros with eyes that protrude more or what people call dragon eyes, never develop drop eyes. This should not be confused with bilateral exophthalmos, which would mean osmoregulatory failure, eg kidney failure. You would expect dropsy with that as well.

While genetics would determine the way the eyes are set. The environment exacerbates the problem. Tanks with high human traffic, esp with children playing on the floor in front of the tank. These aros seem to be more proned to drop eyes. I think it's a multifactorial problem, but diet is definitely not one of them.
Any comments about this website:
http://arowanaclub.com/stories.php?s.../01/14/2046318
Looking at overfeed and food size the hobbyist gave to their arowanas and then having droop eyes, many indeed look like it is quite true.

http://forums.fishindex.com/showthread.php?t=8610
quoted "By far the most common explanation is simply "overfeeding"..."

Will post more reference to this when I am back later.
 
Old 03-08-2005, 12:36 PM   #13
zihao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aroboy II
Bare tanks cause eye-droop due to the aro looking downwards?
Lightings too strong from the top? Any comments? Thanks.
There is such possibility too. You are 2nd for environment-caused-droop-eye.
Can also call it drop-eye.
 
Old 03-08-2005, 12:39 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckydragon
I eould agree with vetduck. I believe genetics play an important role in droop eyes, and the environment may have a significant effect, too. One of my friends has 2 RTGs which were bought from the same source, farm but tagged on different dates. They are in the same tank, therefore, same water, and food. One got bad droop eyes, and the other does not.
I was told to prevent, or minimize droop eyes, the environment should be darkened. Also, put some floating objects in the tank so that the fish do not look downward all time to the bottom of the tank.
Any comments about diet more often is the cause? I see many of the people overfeed and looking at the background info they gave on the thread, it is indeed overfeeding.
 
Old 03-08-2005, 12:42 PM   #15
zihao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poi pounder
my opinion leads towards the genetics side as I have kept numerous silvers and jardinis all in bars tanks and with the same diets. while the jardinis never had drop eye some of my silvers got it.
Though genetics may be one of the factor, would you think it is other present in-tank factors that allow it to develop. One analogy, you can have whoever parents, grand parents with heart diseases/kidney etc (touch wood!) but your good diet etc saved your health. But if you have so callled the genes to heart problems, then you smoke. Tata, the gene activates from the dominant state.
 
Old 03-08-2005, 12:51 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Hobbit6003
Hi Zihao and all,

Yes, I do agree with Vetduck that genetics have alot to do with this syndrome. Environmental factors such as placement of tanks and lights, human traffic and all, woudl be what i call as risk factors.

Just like obesity, which is usually genetically pre-determined. THe risk factors, therfore would be things like diet and exercise (or the lack of). Hence if one is able to control teh risk factors, then the genetic presentation may not get expressed out.

Besides anatomical feature such as a protruded/inset eye, which is genetically pre-determined of course, the other factor could be a laxity in the muscles that control eyeball movement. This, to me, could also be genetically pre-determined, as it seems to be affecting the silvers more than other aro species.It could also be due to chronic muscular fatigue due to the exposure to the evironmental factors a mentioned above.

About fatty accumulation behind the eyes, I really don't think that is the cause. First of all, in order to have accumulated so much fats to displace the eye, it'll have to take a long time. This will not explain why some of the young fishes are also affected.

Secondly, there's the existing practice by some farms, which trim away these fatty tissues behind the eyeball, so as to re-set the eyball back into the so called proper position. However, from what I can gather after talking to a couple of these farmers, the relapse rate is high.

You see, you need to have fat cells and tissues for you to deposit fats, they don't just ooze out into the open spaces like that. And fat cells, once removed, do not regenerate. Then if this is the case, why would there be a relapse of the droopy eyes once fatty tissues have been removed?

Cheers,

Kenny
Yap there are other possibility to it. Good to list out all the do-nots when we brain-storm together so that this serves as a good references and clear some myths.

If it is genetically pre-determined, hobbyist should probe into the 2 generations of parents before getting their fish. How about that?

There are farmers trimming away the fats from the eyes and so any idea of their fish's diet or possible cause that they can zoom into. Relapse rate is high just like Liposuction, if the diet or body mentabolism or other implications does not change for the good, it will relapse. Doesn't necessary state that diet is totally out.
 
Old 03-08-2005, 01:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
There are farmers trimming away the fats from the eyes and so any idea of their fish's diet or possible cause that they can zoom into. Relapse rate is high just like Liposuction, if the diet or body mentabolism or other implications does not change for the good, it will relapse. Doesn't necessary state that diet is totally out.
Hi Zihao,

The farmers were doing it, because, they too thought that fats and diet was the cause of droop eyes.

Yes, you can liken removal of these retro-occular fatty tissues to liposuction. And no, after liposuction, there's no such thing as a relapse.

If you've understood me correctly, when you remove the fatty or adipose tissues away, the adipose cells DO NOT regenerate.

The adipose cells are cells that fats are being deposit into. So, if you've removed them, then the fats would not accumulate in the same region again, but rather, they get redistributed into other areas with adipose tissues.

So, in removing the retro-occular fatty tissues completely, there wouldn't be a chance for fats to be deposited there already. And so, if this is the case, there wouldn't be a replapse of droop eye, isn't it?

Quote:
Though genetics may be one of the factor, would you think it is other present in-tank factors that allow it to develop. One analogy, you can have whoever parents, grand parents with heart diseases/kidney etc (touch wood!) but your good diet etc saved your health. But if you have so callled the genes to heart problems, then you smoke. Tata, the gene activates from the dominant state.
What you've just illustrated, is a perfect example of a relationship between a pre-disposing factor (genetics) and the risk factors (smoking, diet, exercise, etc.)

In such a relationship, you need to have the pre-disposing factor first before the risk factor can come in and influence the outcome. So, in this case, genetics is not ONE of the factors, but a pre-existing condition.

Cheers,

Kenny
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Old 03-08-2005, 04:43 PM   #18
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It depends on the type of aros u r referring to as well .... basically most silvers develop dropeyes so in tat aspect one can deduce its a genetical factor ... for asian aros, i wud think its more due to environment, the current red tat i have ... when i got it, it has drop eyes, and quite bad at tat ... now its completely ok ... it used to be in a 522 tank upper deck, black oyama and all ... now its in a FGT 842 ... no drop eyes at all ....

of cos the other factor can be from injury when the aro dash, hit its eye or socket and hence develop dropeye
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Old 03-08-2005, 05:13 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zihao
There are many possibility. What do you think it could be from the list?
i tink it is most likely genetics n environment.
couldnt be too much fatty food, cause i always starve my aro. feedin 3 times a week wif e min food requirement for e aro
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Old 03-08-2005, 05:22 PM   #20
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Hi Kenny,

The relaspe I am talking about is that the person would still grow fat and yes, you are correct, but somewhere else though depending on the stage of growth. But I wonder if anyone knows when arowanas stop developing new fat cells, any idea Kenny? Can't really say these cells wont appear again, it depends on the stage of growth from what I understand. Like humans, we only stop developing new fat cells after puberty until a critical stage as mentioned in the extract below.

I have not practically done any removal on mine before, what is the chances of 100% removal when we are talking about cells? I quote this:
[ "Hypertrophic obesity results in an increase in the size of the fat cells, without a change in their number. It is usually a post-adolescent phenomenon, and holds true until total body fat exceeds a critical, at which point new fat cells are produced to accommodate the enlarging lipid reserves." - Credit: Yale Medical Core Curriculum ]

Agree with that. Indeed it is a pre-existing condition but not the aggravating factor. Would anyone agree with genes (condition) then diet (cause) be clicking together?

Lastly, maybe we can look into places like where the fish can have fat deposits and further discuss about this fact/myth.
 
 


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