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Old 18-07-2011, 03:40 PM   #31
TOM32
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Brother Uluaking

Thank you for your definition of a Pure BD.
May i add my opinions.

Regards


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Originally Posted by uluaking View Post
Hi all, given my limited experience on Black diamond P13... Will try to share with fellow brothers/sisters on how to identiify PDR/Grading of Black Diamonds

Here are the following on how i grade these rays.....

1. Spots should be white even when young pups....
For me all white spots should be roundish, symetrical and the more the better - definitely no dotted lines, paws, brown island spots, etc as shown in pic.

2. Spots rows from centre to skirt....
For a black diamond, 5th row and 6th row can be seen visibily well. 6th row of spots for BD will be one grade higher - with full tiny round spots - semi round spots at edge are not. But Big spotted BD most of the time has full 5 rows spots also term high grade bd like this pic.

3. Skirt spots

For BD, skirt spots should be continuous with minimum break off point. Some BD have 2 rows of skirt spots thus being termed 6th row spots must be round not semi round.

4. Spots in Eye
For BD, Most of the BD have spots in eyes..... the more spot the better to enhance the blue lens effect thus many brothers here termed blue eyes... But i do notice some BD eye dont have that much spot in the eye. So termed as another grading on BD. As for PDR, some have and some dont have as well.

5. Spots around eye....

For BD, Spots surounding the eyes should be as much as possible..... so when they grow bigger .... the whole eye portion is white with spots.. PDR do have such features as well.

6. Thorns on the tail....

According to Taiwan identification from what i learn.... 3 rows of thorns should be situated on the tails.....with picture to illustrate will be good.

7. Flag shaped and short tail....

When BD/PDR are young, their tails should be relatively shorter than the body. One look give u an impression of short tail feeling kinda identification. No exact lenght is being documented. PDR/BD alll have FLAG tail.....

8. Under belly spotting ....

Some BD have underbelly spotting.... the more the merrier... termed graded as another higher grade catergory. Some BD dont have. PDR most of them dont have .... only high grade PDR will have such spots prominent when they grow bigger...some BD without underbelly spotting looks better than those with very good underbelly spotting - BD without underbelly produces pups with very nice underbelly -so very subjective - top view or bottom view more important?

9. BD grading ..

BD have Thousand Island BD, Big spotted BD, Eclispe BD ...... if any BD comprising all or any 2 of these are of course a much higher grade compared to normal BD ...... so if u have possession of a bd that has all 3 mentioned.... that is a priceless piece ..... like the pic attached ..... the piece had 2 of the above mentioned category. PDR is being grade as such too but spot sure definitely be lesser

Enjoy Ray keeping bros/sis...

Last edited by TOM32; 14-10-2011 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 18-07-2011, 04:18 PM   #32
uluaking
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Brother Uluaking

Thank you for your definition of a Pure BD.
May i add my opinions.

Regards
Uncle Tom32..... Thank you for your sharing.....you are most welcome to add opinions....
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Old 18-07-2011, 04:30 PM   #33
Luc
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Originally Posted by TOM32 View Post
Brother Uluaking

Thank you for your definition of a Pure BD.
May i add my opinions.

Regards
Uncle Tony, what if the spots is neither lines, paws, but some irregular shaped like diamond-shaped or triangular-shaped?
And it is white but just not that kind of total white but with some "shades" of grey?
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Old 18-07-2011, 05:46 PM   #34
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Uncle Tony, what if the spots is neither lines, paws, but some irregular shaped like diamond-shaped or triangular-shaped?
And it is white but just not that kind of total white but with some "shades" of grey?
Captive breeding has already gone into many generations in Taiwan, Thailand etc, crossing them and back again to pure and so on. Even some of the imported diamond rays look very pure but along the breeding lines, we are unable to know exactly what have actually happened. Breeders know best.
Even the wild caught bds - how to say they are not pure?

From my experiences, if you go for fully roundish spots and those points that Brother Uluaking have mentuoned - you will never be wronged. These roundish spots will turn into ecllips, donuts and if you are lucky, appearance of thousand island spots when they get matured.

I have no experience about diamond or triangular shapes, so it is not fair for me to comment. What i have seen with my breeding stocks are that the spots are more and usually roundish and are very white comparing with BDleo pups. I have one particular female which I bought her as wild caught diamond, occasionally has pups with not so roundish spots. I sold her pups at much lower pricing.

Having these points in mind, you have to make your own judgment and decide what you actually are looking for. Even very experience brothers here also have difficulty of confirming a 80% pure diamond.

Love the ray from how she looks and not because of her name. Decide how much to pay from her look rather than her name. Uncle's English very chimp ne.

Regards
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Old 18-07-2011, 06:13 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by TOM32 View Post
Captive breeding has already gone into many generations in Taiwan, Thailand etc, crossing them and back again to pure and so on. Even some of the imported diamond rays look very pure but along the breeding lines, we are unable to know exactly what have actually happened. Breeders know best.
Even the wild caught bds - how to say they are not pure?

From my experiences, if you go for fully roundish spots and those points that Brother Uluaking have mentuoned - you will never be wronged. These roundish spots will turn into ecllips, donuts and if you are lucky, appearance of thousand island spots when they get matured.

I have no experience about diamond or triangular shapes, so it is not fair for me to comment. What i have seen with my breeding stocks are that the spots are more and usually roundish and are very white comparing with BDleo pups. I have one particular female which I bought her as wild caught diamond, occasionally has pups with not so roundish spots. I sold her pups at much lower pricing.

Having these points in mind, you have to make your own judgment and decide what you actually are looking for. Even very experience brothers here also have difficulty of confirming a 80% pure diamond.

Love the ray from how she looks and not because of her name. Decide how much to pay from her look rather than her name. Uncle's English very chimp ne.

Regards
Thanks for replying,
What I mean was that, the spots are really triangular shaped and diamond-shaped with sharp corners, you know what I mean?
This is what I saw when I visited a farm....the rims, 5th, 6th and 4th row all roundish or oval shaped but 3rd, 2nd and top row, have afew very odd-shaped spots, which made them "stands out" and that's why I noticed and have this question in my mind. But I can't say I cannot trust mother nature.....
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Old 18-07-2011, 06:38 PM   #36
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Thanks for replying,
What I mean was that, the spots are really triangular shaped and diamond-shaped with sharp corners, you know what I mean?
This is what I saw when I visited a farm....the rims, 5th, 6th and 4th row all roundish or oval shaped but 3rd, 2nd and top row, have afew very odd-shaped spots, which made them "stands out" and that's why I noticed and have this question in my mind. But I can't say I cannot trust mother nature.....
In my opinion, shapes like triangular, diamond, peanut and are whitish are fine to me. Have seen many of these diamonds in Taiwan/Thailand websites. But i can't tell whether they are pure or not. They look great too. Perhaps some brothers can enlighten us.

Regards

Last edited by TOM32; 18-07-2011 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 18-07-2011, 07:04 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by TOM32 View Post
In my opinion, shapes like triangular, diamond, peanut and are whitish are fine to me. Have seen many of these diamonds in Taiwan/Thailand websites. But i can't tell whether they are pure or not. They look great too. Perhaps some brothers can enlighten us.

Regards
Uncle nice n detail write up but my bd got peanuts shape spots how? Spots breaking up?
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Old 18-07-2011, 07:24 PM   #38
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Hi All,

IMO we should not go too deep and detail to define what is a "Black Diamond" because at this point of time it is still P13. I will read Bro Ularking sharing as his experience in what most ray keeper prefer while selecting a so call "Black Diamond" ray. I just feel that it is still not right to term those as characteristics of BD. I had seen many stunning specimen that are called BD and yet do not match what was mentioned above. In my heart they are show grade P13

Like what many members here had mentioned, see it, appreciate it, buy it. You think it is one with high potnetial? Go for it and enjoy the grooming plus anticipation.

Bro Ularking, really need to thank you for sharing and bringing up this very interesting topic. This is the fun part about keeping blackies.... Cheers
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Old 19-07-2011, 05:57 PM   #39
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1. Spots should be white even when young pups....

It is always encouraged to buy rays when they are conditioned. Conditioned means stable when stable down the pups will enhance its base color and spots. For PDR/Black Diamond, the spots MUST be white in color. 6 inches and above pups are deemed white spotted. Should not be any yellowish spot throught the whole body.

I disagree on the above..
1) If the pup have a slow growth rate or stunted than the spot are damn white even though it's only 5".. (you will know when you find that after eating a lot but still not growing fast)

2) 6" and above pups can still have yellow spots on the centre cos I have bred and grow more than 70pcs pure PDR pups till 8" before selling off.

From my experiences if the grow rate is fast than the yellow spots on the centre wouldn't disappear that fast. It's take about 3 to 4 months for PURE PDR to be completely white in the centre.

Just my 2 cents..

Last edited by azon; 19-07-2011 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 19-07-2011, 08:29 PM   #40
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Hi all bro this pup is what I produce recently and both parent are of wild caught BD and this is not the first batch of pup they produce only this one came out like that so what's your say dear bros in AF,... Even I did not tot I can have such pup

Oh btw this pup is with bro williamt sorry to use this pic only for info niar cheers
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