my next generation bd n bdleo

[ap99]

Originally Posted by marshy

You mean these BD pups were already born with patterns and lines and it's the WTT that makes it more pronounced? Already patterned BD pups... Interesting. Are these patterned BD pups occurrence only from recent captive breeding outcome?



I may be mistaken but are you saying possibly Wild BDs do produce such patterned pups? Of course we don't see such specimen since all WC BD exports are typically at 10-12" size and up.



This phenomenon typically occurs with relatively bigger spots and as the ray grows bigger and bigger. And even in the whole process of "morphing", we can see these obvious patterns as morphing rather than as special messy look.



Ok. So what sizes are those messy patterned rays in your pond? They look at least sub adult size at minimum. Their look don't fit into the morph patterns you described.

Overall I understand what you're describing. Are you saying that those messy pattern rays are a result of all you described above? But I've seen such described rays in all their stages but their patterns don't match the messy patterns in the video.

Bro marshers...rendom answer ar.... like I've said I may be wrong too but you ask me as I'm a scientist sorry I'm not wahahaha .... it's only all this year's of experience/things I encounter n got to realise on my own rays (I may be wrong too I don't go to international forum like you to see what they say )...

Every ray I have are accounted for n i got it only from my exporter n all are wild caught specimen I can prove if you want (I dont buy unknown source brooder plus note).. oh two are From max koi but have not breed yet I also can prove...

out of this 35-40 pieces of pups/sub adult if you want to say... there are about 3-4 pcs size 8-10" max..that have this messy patterns ( you say they look at least sub adult size at minimum meanings to say sub adult to adult? Wah i dont know what to say lor ) ).....All those rays at the pond are size ranging from 8-13" biggest.... you want to see also can!

you say after all this year's of captive breeding is this the result of captive breeding. ... do you know that only two pups in that whole pond are captive breed parent... N they belong to dolphex-tang bro kelvin hope this is clear enough for you as for the rest it's all F1 pups lah meanings wild caught parent so you think how I can explain to you n even if I answer you you will trow even more questions haiz... ok ok I do selective or you can say match breeding (got another theory to talk again I'll skip) I can talk went i see you if possible

Why not you come to my place n i show you all the ray n explain or even tell you who is this pup papa n mama it belong to or even which of my mama are my own production

some times we keep on browsing the net it's all about theory lah you got to be there n see it too (hands on) lor n you can have your own views while I have mine it's ok bro I'm not gonna have a debate with you here!

As a breeder we should be as honest as at our very best lah


No offence to anyone cos even we talk till the rooster come out also can't finish lah

Sorry my ang moh not good cheers

[ap99]

Oh oh got to add.... those smaller to mid size rays in the pond were in white tank before putting in the pond no long ago!!,...

[marshy]

I think you misunderstood.
I have no doubts about your brooder quality.
As far as I'm concern, your brooders are either sourced WC or grown up offsprings of your own breeding.

At the end of the day, I am just curious and wondering.
Would a messy patterned BD still constitute to being a BD?
Messy Pattern can either look really bad or look fantastic (BTW yours are absolutely fantastic!)

Thing is.... so many international breeders come out with so called rays that are really messy patterned as well and looks really fantastic (like yours). Well there are those breeders who are honest enough to declare these rays are not BD (they call it super hybrid designer ray).

Now I'm not questioning your Brooder stock. The adults there are for all to see and they are BDs (WC BDs). But I'm just surprised to see those fantastic looking messy patterned rays in the pond.

I'll be honest. If I were to see those rays alone in a tank and posted by some Thai/TW breeder in Facebook. First reaction... Si Beh Swee...2nd reaction... Is that really BD?

Hence.. since I see them in your breeding (And we all know you are well respected breeder with integrity), I just want to dig more about "Messy Patterned BDs".

BTW, I have seen messy patterned BDs bred by other local BD breeders whereby the brooders are supposedly also WC BDs.

So finally..

1) What constitutes to being a true blue BD with no possibility of mix parentage with thrown off genes passing certain generation of offsprings?
2) If the age old decision on what constitutes to being a pure BD stands. Then we have no absolute certainty about all WC BD brooders that the world wide breeders have are really Pure... or have been "Stained" by some form of mix breeding in the wild (either their parents or grandparents etc).

[Tay]

How come no one come into this discussion? Is it cos one is BD god the other senior mod??? Let me start the ball rolling for all.......

Look back at history, many threads had indicated the criteria of BD, wat is BD..... Blue eyes, round spots, with don kn wat 3,4,5 ring spots, belly spots, etc mainly fr the influence of western side and we accepted blindly. For the last few yrs, Dennis and myself, thru research and solving many breeding issues, we realised that wat we had stated many theories earlier abt rays may not apply.

Becos of all these criteria being set earlier either by sellers, breeders, buyers whoever lah, we are stuck in a situation whereby we cannot eat back our own words on wat is BD now. Those BD breeders with 30 to 50 brooders so call all WC pure BD, all had produced funny pattern BD fr their WC PURE BD, but unfortunately all unwilling to share their experience openly worrying rumous being spread abt them producing BD using hybrid.

I hereby respect Dennis here having the courage to show all his brooders regardless they r round spots or messy pattern not worrying that pple will tarnish his rep abt not pure brooders. Knowing Dennis for over 8 yrs gg thru so many abt rays, I hereby hv no doubt on his rays bloodline. Issue maybe fr the wild as we had all been discussing for a while ago. No one is able to prove anything if there is no so call pure gene data of rays being kept long ago for reference.

ultimately, irregardless u are breeding hybrid, pure or both, if breeders or seller wan to con u, there is no escape lah. Thus many pure rays breeders dare not hv sp in their farm cos afraid being branded as con man, well, I breed pure BD and hybrid, if buyer hv such mentality, best don buy fr me lor. See ray buy ray lah, or another way, see seller buy ray also can. hahaha

As for bro Marshy, really catch me by surprise that he brought all these out for further discussion, again another salute to him as I had met many many pple talking to me abt their view on wat is BD but no one, no one dare to openly discuss in the forum scared being zapped to death. We r all here to learn & to surpass our oversea competitors, however, the real situation is we r all here trying to .... each other. SAD!!!!!

[Tay]

Come on, hope more have the courage to openly air their view on this issue, there is no right or wrong, there is only more knowledge to absord. DONT SCARED LEIIIIIII

[ap99]

No lah bro my words can be a bit harsh sorry if I offended you

I agree that there's no absolute answer to whether is there any pure bd at the first place!,... because even I can't be sure all this so call wild caught specimen are tinted or not same goes to all the rest of the P series

[Aro77]

hi bros.. IMHO for me i dont see BDs are those with skirting , for me a BD is 1 with of course the normal spots , TI And Paddle tail thats all , but of course skirting and donuts are a plus point this is just my honest view

[Aro77]

BTW Boss Dennis Super Super Super stock there ( makes me drool )

[Nomis]

Good topic for sharing from well respected Ray Guru n sifu Dennis...

Thumps up to "Ray Investigator" Marshy , really agree and envy your frank and sharp observation on BD characteristic...I can agree with your statement that categorising what a real BD is just not that few pointers that many have perceived earlier , there may be more to it.

Had even witness BD with "lines" turns out as nice when grown into adulthood.

Remember Lester ever showed me a almost "full line" instead of 'spots" bd pup picture (just sharing hor Lester ) too.

For once , many may brush out that they are not "pure" etc etc...

But in the end, what is BD? It's just another nice looking pure p13 in my personal opinion that's all. Again, not everyone may agree here too

First we have ... "All perimeter spot" bd, then we have "diamond eye" , follow by "under-belly spotting" bd, then again "flag tail" bd and "white diamond" and now the now new "MP BD " the "Messy Pattern Black Diamond".

And hey, sifu ... Can advise my "Rolex" still fall under the MP BD category ?

Hijack your thread for his photo hor

Or maybe far far away to meet this standard.

Lastly , thumps up again to Dennis for sharing our local Singapore BD breeding stock, really made us proud !!!

Organise an open house for rays chatting again leh ...

Simon

[marshy]

It's been a swell discussion.
I apologise to Dennis if I may have sounded to be attacking and questioning his rays...

I merely wanted to discuss about messy patterned rays.. Their existence... Their parents... Where their parents origin... And finally leading to what really constitutes to a true blue BD.

Perhaps selective breeding (inbreeding or otherwise) may produce really extra ordinary new kinds of BDs but that would be F3 and later pups....

I see ray buy ray. Dun screw whether pure BD or "Special Hybrid Designer Ray). See.. Swee.. Songz.. Happy with price... BUY.

Long time no share ray... Let me do so now. As far as I'm concern... By historical Standards of BD... My tank only one that possibly fits the" Standard"... The others.. Perhaps Tainted.... But who's to say? I don't care... In the end, I like what I have.

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