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Old 31-03-2009, 09:08 AM   #101
jwhtan
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Hi richard

no worries ..... a forum is bound to have diversity in views/opinions .... i think while we all hold our own views, we respect another's opinion ..... for me, while i dun disagree with how the church pays its pastor which i feel is their perogative, i dun particularly like this handsome payment for community services or God's services .....
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Old 31-03-2009, 09:12 AM   #102
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i dun understand the need for a 1bil commercial project either. what 1 bil can do to help the poor and needy.
i think they do explain to their congregation why they are embarking on such an ambitious project ..... the amount in rental they pay to suntec to hold the services there is huge ..... in the long run, they feel it makes more sense to have their own building where they can be self sustainable .... of cos outsiders dun see what they see .... or rather outsiders see what they dun see
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Old 31-03-2009, 09:31 AM   #103
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Okie. I must step in and say this.

I think quoting scripture carries a very weighty responsibility. So I don't think it should be taken lightly, unless you are willing to back it all up, because quoting scripture doesn't mean anything unless you're going to supply the context, interpretation and application as it was meant, not as we like or think or guess. So unless one is gonna show everyone here some theological certification, I think random lifting of scriptures can do more harm than good if not done in the right way and in the right spirit.

Randomly googling key words within scripture and lifting the parts which support one’s argument without a discourse on the background of the entire passage, or book, or series of books, or even the author’s background, setting, and timelines of how the book came about means there is a very good possibility that parts of scripture can be misquoted or taken out of context.

Presenting the scriptures as they were meant to is very different to lifting disjoint parts that happen to echo one’s own sentiments.

Most of all, I do not think quoting scripture here proves and disproves anything; quoting scripture doesn't prove the penniless pastor to be true to scripture though he sure looks the part, nor does it disprove the 7 series driving pastor even though he looks so wrong for the part, because Man does not see another man's heart, only God does, and we'd best leave that to God. I've said it a few times, and I said it again.

To say that a Ferrari will definitely outrun a Nissan Sunny is a gross oversimplification. The Ferrari may not even have an engine under the hood and can’t even move, while the Nissan could have major upgrades under the hood. Simply put, do not judge a book by its cover like we’re so prone to doing. This is especially pertinent given Man is equally prone to keeping up appearances. Yes, even the pastor who looks penniless and looks frugal and looks the part, may at the end of the day be tried and tested by God to have simply looked it, and nothing more. But who’s to say? Not any one of us.

My point is that far too many place too much emphasis on the "form" of a man versus the "essence" of a man, what they can see versus what they can't see. We judge a man only by what we can see, but there is more, and God sees and tests the inner man which we can’t see.

So my bottomline from the very beginning is that we should leave the judging to God.

Oh man… now that’s enough religion for the whole of 2009- 2010 already… sheesh..
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Old 31-03-2009, 10:18 AM   #104
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Default Church leader's massive pay: Blame the congregation

Church leader's massive pay: Blame the congregation
http://www.straitstimes.com/ST%2BFor...ry_356486.html

I REFER to yesterday's report, "$500,000 pay for New Creation Church leader".
As a Christian now for 30 years, I cannot help but feel embarrassed by such a report.

However, I do not put the blame for such obscene pay cheques on the elite group of church leaders; rather, I would lay it on the congregation.

During the Chinese New Year period, my family and I visited one of the classier church buildings and attended a service. We were taken aback when a special offering, referred to as a hongbao for Jesus, took place. We were surprised to see many in the congregation willingly coming down the aisles to drop their red packets of money in the baskets held by the pastors and leaders. In return for giving, devotees received a spiritual blessing of prayer.

I was amazed at the congregation's willingness to give without really knowing where all the money was going to. (There was no mention of the purpose of the collection other than giving it to Jesus.)

Edward Rajeshwar Zaccheus
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Old 31-03-2009, 10:41 AM   #105
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Actually, i wish to share a different perspective to this episode.. End of the day, its the personal relationship which the person shares with his God that comes foremost into play. So the steward of the wealth will need to decide if this wealth is going to obstruct him from being closer to his Maker or not, its really that simple. Most often, wealth does create a barrier to one's spritual growth, unless one is prepared to share generously Like Mother Teresa once said... Practise giving till it hurts..

The voices around do play a part in determining whether the person is deserving or not as well... if this issue hadn't created such an uproar but had majority giving thumbs up, then it does show to some extent tt the person is deserving. Conversely, if the topic is causing such a tremendous uproar, then the person better do some reflection on whether this paycheck is worth the "scandal".
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Old 31-03-2009, 10:51 AM   #106
AlvinLeong
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Not only church lah... some temples also like that... some monks from some temples drive 7 series/S-class.

The followers willing to "contribute", i don't see any problem. As long as they don't cry father cry mother when anything happened, want government to pay them back their $ thru tax payer $.

By the way, got time go visit the Church (now under construction but can eat at HANS), along Paya Lebar road (next to Shell), very big and very impressive, the waterfall, all the flooring and renovation machaim 5 stars hotel....
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Old 31-03-2009, 10:53 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIN View Post

I was amazed at the congregation's willingness to give without really knowing where all the money was going to. (There was no mention of the purpose of the collection other than giving it to Jesus.)

Edward Rajeshwar Zaccheus

i like this,LMAO
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Old 31-03-2009, 10:54 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by cavallino View Post
Okie. I must step in and say this.

I think quoting scripture carries a very weighty responsibility. So I don't think it should be taken lightly, unless you are willing to back it all up, because quoting scripture doesn't mean anything unless you're going to supply the context, interpretation and application as it was meant, not as we like or think or guess. So unless one is gonna show everyone here some theological certification, I think random lifting of scriptures can do more harm than good if not done in the right way and in the right spirit.

Randomly googling key words within scripture and lifting the parts which support one’s argument without a discourse on the background of the entire passage, or book, or series of books, or even the author’s background, setting, and timelines of how the book came about means there is a very good possibility that parts of scripture can be misquoted or taken out of context.

Presenting the scriptures as they were meant to is very different to lifting disjoint parts that happen to echo one’s own sentiments.

Most of all, I do not think quoting scripture here proves and disproves anything; quoting scripture doesn't prove the penniless pastor to be true to scripture though he sure looks the part, nor does it disprove the 7 series driving pastor even though he looks so wrong for the part, because Man does not see another man's heart, only God does, and we'd best leave that to God. I've said it a few times, and I said it again.

To say that a Ferrari will definitely outrun a Nissan Sunny is a gross oversimplification. The Ferrari may not even have an engine under the hood and can’t even move, while the Nissan could have major upgrades under the hood. Simply put, do not judge a book by its cover like we’re so prone to doing. This is especially pertinent given Man is equally prone to keeping up appearances. Yes, even the pastor who looks penniless and looks frugal and looks the part, may at the end of the day be tried and tested by God to have simply looked it, and nothing more. But who’s to say? Not any one of us.

My point is that far too many place too much emphasis on the "form" of a man versus the "essence" of a man, what they can see versus what they can't see. We judge a man only by what we can see, but there is more, and God sees and tests the inner man which we can’t see.

So my bottomline from the very beginning is that we should leave the judging to God.

Oh man… now that’s enough religion for the whole of 2009- 2010 already… sheesh..
Wow very well said, we will leave that to God

Stan, ever thought of being a preacher
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Old 31-03-2009, 10:57 AM   #109
lloveguppies08
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I always thought the Pastor should be blessed by God doing God's work and the big amount of money should not be in his pocket as the bible said that 'God provides......'. So why should the Pastor be having so much money for ? He should gives them up to better use to help the poor and others and not making a good life out of it. He should be paid sufficient for his maintenance,food and family and should not be enjoying such luxurious life style, am I right ? Pardon me, if wrong. I always have the impression that Pastor gets only a small portion of the salary and not the huge amount as reported. If this is the case, then what will other church Pastors think and compare themselves to this mega church ? Don't they feel threaten or jealous ? Don't they feel they are not up to what the mega church Pastor has done and think like what we think even though he is a religious man ? Do memberships in Church have an impact on the pastor's ability to bring people to their church to worship? If not why mega church have such huge followers as compare with some churches ? What do we, worshippers see in the mega church ? Do people really get blessing worship in this church or other church does not blessed their followers ? If not why so and Who do we really worship, THE PASTOR or GOD ?

Last edited by lloveguppies08; 31-03-2009 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 31-03-2009, 11:02 AM   #110
AlvinLeong
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Originally Posted by lloveguppies08 View Post
I always thought the Pastor should be blessed by God doing God's work and the big amount of money should not be in his pocket as the bible said that 'God provides......'. So why should the Pastor be having so much money for ? He should gives them up to better use to help the poor and others and not making a good life of of it. He should be paid sufficent for his maintenance,food and family and should not be enjoying such luxurious life style, am I right ? Pardon me, if wrong. I always have the impression that Pastor get only a small portion of the salary and not the huge amount as reported. If this is the case, then what will other Pastors think and compare themselves to this church. Don't they feel inferior and think like what we think even though he is a religious man ? Do membership in Church have an impact on the pastor's ability to bring people to their church to worship and willingly contribute to their salaries ? If not why mega church have such huge followers as compare with some church ? Who do we really worship, THE PASTOR or GOD ?

I agree with you. Now is machiam fighting to see who got more followers.
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