has anyone DIY trickle tower?

square_guy · 04-09-2003, 12:21 AM

as above. i am asking the question here instead of the filter forum becoz of

1. i have seen feedback in www.koi.my that TT reduces nitrate in outdoor koi pond.
2. GF tank experience high nitrate due to high waste, need high % water change.
3. aro ppl in general no need to be too concern abt nitrate due to lower waste produce.
4. have some ppl here who seems to be into DIY.

i am looking into this option as my GF tank produce lotsa nitrate (easily reach 50mg/l in half a week). i have to change 80% water almost twice a week. my intention is to cut water change to once a week while maintaining good nitrate level (<20mg/l, possible?).

fyi, ppl in koi.my have reported nitrate level drop frm >100mg/l to consistent <10mg/l upon use of TT. i tot it is amazing

plan
1. TT will supplement my OHF
2. will be around 20" tall
3. maybe around 300 to 400 bioballs
4. slow flowrate, abt 1.5x to 2x of tank volume.
5. tank is 3ft.

so here i am gathering feedback on any past success or failures

04-09-2003, 09:01 PM

I love to play with filtration, primarily out of interest and necessity since my main tank is as over-stocked as yours.

I looked into TT, also at the same web site plus other sites, and frankly, I'm not totally convinced. It appears the TT worked for some people becoz it has effectively became a denitrator. There lies a potential problem where you tank (vs their pond) may not have sufficient dissolved oxygen after going through the TT.

If you're into DIY and find the twice weekly massive water change a hassle (it is!), why not consider DIY an water change device instead? Clean tap water is still the best "filter". I wish I have a drainage pipe nearby, and I'll simply convert my tank to an overflow tank; turning on the tap will replace the old water without getting my hands wet!

square_guy · 05-09-2003, 10:33 AM

the main point one of the scientist brought up in the thread is that the nitrifying process will reduce amonia to nitrogen directly if there is enuff air mixture. if there is not enuff water-film to air contact, the by product will simply dissolve into the water as nitrites and nitrates. and the cycle goes on. i am not sure whether u have seen that post, but to me it sounds pretty convincing.

how do u define denitrator? conversion of nitrate to nitrogen via anerobic bacteria? is that the reason u mention low level of oxygen after TT? i dun quite get your point as i believe nitrifying bact uses oxygen to break down amonia into nitrites (as in any normal filter. canister, ohf etc). so any matured filter will use up oxygen.

i do not have any drainage pipe near to my tank too. gotta use a long long hose to connect to the toilet

a diy water change device sounds interesting, but tat will have to wait. the TT has grab my full attention now

an idea for u. if u can add an overflow into ur current tank, will not just install a sump (or refugium like those done by reefers) below ur tank? and between the overflow and the sump, u can put in a pvc pipe as a TT

i think the length of the TT will be just nice for the TT effect.

05-09-2003, 12:37 PM

I'm running late for an appointment so I'll do a quick reply first:

A denitrator works by employing anerobic bacterial to convert and remove nitrate. It's totally different from the usual aerobic bacterial where it survive only in oxygen-depleted water, and a presumption, in a dark environment. In a tall TT, it's assumed that as the water drips down, oxygen is depleted by the aerobic bacterial at the upper level. Hence, a wet/dry will remove nitrate only when it is tall enough. It is also the absence of dissolve oxygen when the water discharge that I'm a little concern over with if I use it in a tank with small surface area.

If you want to try your own denitrator, below is a DIY way to do it, while commercially produced ones are also available.

http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/sh...postid=1260287

square_guy · 05-09-2003, 01:14 PM

thanks for pointing me to the thread, have been looking for it

u mentioned in the thread tat u r going to try it too. so how? any results?

have u seen this post?

http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koifor...5;guest=577012

instead of a O2 deprived environment, the idea is to use a O2 rich environment, with low flow rate. the many success stories over the internet makes it rather irresistable to me :P

anyway, the cost of the project seems to be low. so no harm trying it out

05-09-2003, 07:43 PM

Ahem. I knew someday someone’s gonna ask me that question. Unfortunately I never kept a record of how well it works. It is said that anaerobic bacterial takes 3-6 weeks to cultivate… and I was just too lazy to keep track of their progress. I can only say that the setup seems to work. Typically my tank’s nitrate level will hit 50 ppm within 3 days (from a 100% water change). Now it takes about 5 days to reach that level. However, my stock level could have changed since last time. So I really can’t say for sure the lower nitrate level is attributable to the denitrator. Sorry. But I think I’ll improve the setup by stocking the base of the canister plus the lowest basket with fine sand. The ideal is to mimic an old UGF where the oxygen level is very low down-under due to accumulation of waste.

Thanks for the link; I'll go through the long thread soon.

I think the low flow-rate bottles down to an intention to deprive the anaerobic bacterial of oxygen. The idea is to allow aerobic bacterial sufficient time to consume oxygen, depleting oxygen in the process for the anaerobic bacterial to thrive.

I don't mean to throw a cold bucket of water to you but I seriously doubt a TT really work unless you can balance the amount of oxygen-rich water (for the aerobic bacterial) and oxygen-free water (for the anaerobic bacteria) within the filtration system. Furthermore, there's something about anaerobic bacterial that I don't quite understand but I should draw your attention to. I read that if they die (when exposed to oxygen), it turns the water toxic, accompanied by very stench rotten eggs odor. Because of that, I’m actually a little anxious to clean my denitrator. Finally, if denitration works as well as the theory it were based upon, filter manufacturers such as Eheim would have jumped on the bandwagon and finally market a filter that requires no water change, ever. But mo established manufacturer with big R&D depts. is doing that. I’m not discouraging you to give it a try, but I suggest reading up more on the whole process of denitration before you subject your fish to it; it could be lethal.

For now... I’m playing with my relatively safe green water which not only filters the water but provide nutrients too; I just bet Eheim’s PR dept is not too happy to know about this old fashion filtration.

You think that setup is low cost? I think if should fails or does not work to your satisfaction, you’ll find it hard to sell used bio-balls.

May I suggest buying a cheap new Atman 3335 ($48 at Y618?) or a used Ehiem and try the denitrating canister method instead? If it doesn’t work, you can easily sell the canister away (or dump your OHF which I think… is a waste of time) with minimal monetary lost. – wink.

square_guy · 06-09-2003, 12:05 AM

hehe, maybe after u go thru the super long thread and give me your thoughts on it?

without going into details, the whole idea of the TT is not based on anerobic bat. instead the main emphasis is on abundant supply of O2. i have read abt the "rotten egg" smell associated abt anerobic blah blah in eg undergravel filter, etc etc and tat's the reason i'm shying away from the denitrator canistor thingy.

u shd see some lava rocks fountains which serves as TT in some koi ponds. they r cool

(but will look very silly on my tank). well the whole thing abt TT is tat there r many documented case of it working very well in reducing nitrate, but there isn't any proper scientific explanation (not tat i can find). well hopefully i can setup something over the weekend and see how it goes.

btw, i think the setup cost isn't tat high. bioballs (100 for $9. 300 = $27), some tall plastic containers (<$10), maybe a piece of light diffuser, and free labour (me) :P

OHF a waste of time??!!?

i dun agree man... i think they r value for money. but tat's another issue

another website with info on TT. www.cyberfins.com. happy reading

06-09-2003, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by square_guy
hehe, maybe after u go thru the super long thread and give me your thoughts on it?

...

I have just gone through the entire thread. The key seems to be the TT has to be tall (as tall as 6 feet, or a minimum of 18 inches.) It will not work if you use the same amount of bio-balls (and hence the same exposure to oxygen) in a low but wide container. WHY?

Doc Conrad provides his explanation on why the TT works in reducing nitrate:-

"The problem getting rid of nitrates in submerged media filtration is that the nitrous oxide and nitric oxide products of denitrification biofilm reactions redissolve in the water, and form more nitrites and nitrates. So these products of denitrification have a hard time to leave the water, and go around and around in a big circle.

In trickle tower filtration, those gases just exit to the air as they leave the trickle tower biofilm. And the nitrogen is gone. As has been discussed on this forum for several years now, it works. "

So, according to Doc Conrad, as long as there's abundance exposure to oxygen, "bacterial will convert nitrite to nitrous oxide and nitric oxide." Frankly, if that's really the case, then why wouldn't a short but wide TT works too?

The fact that TT need to be tall (and has a low flow/drip rate) tells me it's the anaerobic bacterial working in the lower section, where oxygen is lacking, to reduce nitrate. If the mere exposure to abundance oxygen, as claimed, is the reason, hey... I've got a better idea for you to try to DIY. Instead of going through an unsightly TT, just pump mechanically filtered water though a mist spray like those you find at some coffee shops cooling fans. Those "water" is so loaded with oxygen simply by being so small (goosh, they're misty), no TT can beat them in efficiency.

Wanna try? You can buy the mist spray jet at GarageR.

I feel that I shall leave this discussion as is. There's simply no scientific explanation on what's really going on. We'll end up running around totally confused. Do give it a try especially since I had the wrong impression that bioballs are expensive.

Remember the key to success is height.

square_guy · 07-09-2003, 01:02 AM

haha i gotta agree there really isn't any good and proper scientific explanation for the whole thing.

i think dr conrad did not mention the thing abt it being tall etc. it was mentioned by anotehr forumer. anyway dr conrad did mentioned in his own column in cyberfins tat he has seen TT working well with 6" height, and he doesn't really know why ppl find that the taller height works better.

i have set up a simple TT with 150 bioballs and 9" height. low flow rate. will see how it goes

i also just discovered tat my nitrate today is 50mg/L (last water change 80% is last sat). really surprised by the low value as i have expect close to 100mg/l. maybe my flourishing water lectuces are doing their job

08-09-2003, 10:12 AM

i intend to put some plants to use up a bit of the nitrate.
What plants can you guys recommend?
i intend to put them into the sump tank.
using IOUS. I have 2217 ehiem running also.

04-09-2003, 12:21 AM	#1
square_guy Arofanatic Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 263	has anyone DIY trickle tower? as above. i am asking the question here instead of the filter forum becoz of 1. i have seen feedback in www.koi.my that TT reduces nitrate in outdoor koi pond. 2. GF tank experience high nitrate due to high waste, need high % water change. 3. aro ppl in general no need to be too concern abt nitrate due to lower waste produce. 4. have some ppl here who seems to be into DIY. i am looking into this option as my GF tank produce lotsa nitrate (easily reach 50mg/l in half a week). i have to change 80% water almost twice a week. my intention is to cut water change to once a week while maintaining good nitrate level (<20mg/l, possible?). fyi, ppl in koi.my have reported nitrate level drop frm >100mg/l to consistent <10mg/l upon use of TT. i tot it is amazing plan 1. TT will supplement my OHF 2. will be around 20" tall 3. maybe around 300 to 400 bioballs 4. slow flowrate, abt 1.5x to 2x of tank volume. 5. tank is 3ft. so here i am gathering feedback on any past success or failures

04-09-2003, 09:01 PM	#2
happybuddha Guest Posts: n/a	I love to play with filtration, primarily out of interest and necessity since my main tank is as over-stocked as yours. I looked into TT, also at the same web site plus other sites, and frankly, I'm not totally convinced. It appears the TT worked for some people becoz it has effectively became a denitrator. There lies a potential problem where you tank (vs their pond) may not have sufficient dissolved oxygen after going through the TT. If you're into DIY and find the twice weekly massive water change a hassle (it is!), why not consider DIY an water change device instead? Clean tap water is still the best "filter". I wish I have a drainage pipe nearby, and I'll simply convert my tank to an overflow tank; turning on the tap will replace the old water without getting my hands wet!

05-09-2003, 10:33 AM	#3
square_guy Arofanatic Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 263	the main point one of the scientist brought up in the thread is that the nitrifying process will reduce amonia to nitrogen directly if there is enuff air mixture. if there is not enuff water-film to air contact, the by product will simply dissolve into the water as nitrites and nitrates. and the cycle goes on. i am not sure whether u have seen that post, but to me it sounds pretty convincing. how do u define denitrator? conversion of nitrate to nitrogen via anerobic bacteria? is that the reason u mention low level of oxygen after TT? i dun quite get your point as i believe nitrifying bact uses oxygen to break down amonia into nitrites (as in any normal filter. canister, ohf etc). so any matured filter will use up oxygen. i do not have any drainage pipe near to my tank too. gotta use a long long hose to connect to the toilet a diy water change device sounds interesting, but tat will have to wait. the TT has grab my full attention now an idea for u. if u can add an overflow into ur current tank, will not just install a sump (or refugium like those done by reefers) below ur tank? and between the overflow and the sump, u can put in a pvc pipe as a TT i think the length of the TT will be just nice for the TT effect.

05-09-2003, 12:37 PM	#4
happybuddha Guest Posts: n/a	I'm running late for an appointment so I'll do a quick reply first: A denitrator works by employing anerobic bacterial to convert and remove nitrate. It's totally different from the usual aerobic bacterial where it survive only in oxygen-depleted water, and a presumption, in a dark environment. In a tall TT, it's assumed that as the water drips down, oxygen is depleted by the aerobic bacterial at the upper level. Hence, a wet/dry will remove nitrate only when it is tall enough. It is also the absence of dissolve oxygen when the water discharge that I'm a little concern over with if I use it in a tank with small surface area. If you want to try your own denitrator, below is a DIY way to do it, while commercially produced ones are also available. http://www.arofanatics.com/forums/sh...postid=1260287

05-09-2003, 01:14 PM	#5
square_guy Arofanatic Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 263	thanks for pointing me to the thread, have been looking for it u mentioned in the thread tat u r going to try it too. so how? any results? have u seen this post? http://www.koi.com.my/cgi-bin/koifor...5;guest=577012 instead of a O2 deprived environment, the idea is to use a O2 rich environment, with low flow rate. the many success stories over the internet makes it rather irresistable to me :P anyway, the cost of the project seems to be low. so no harm trying it out

05-09-2003, 07:43 PM	#6
happybuddha Guest Posts: n/a	Ahem. I knew someday someone’s gonna ask me that question. Unfortunately I never kept a record of how well it works. It is said that anaerobic bacterial takes 3-6 weeks to cultivate… and I was just too lazy to keep track of their progress. I can only say that the setup seems to work. Typically my tank’s nitrate level will hit 50 ppm within 3 days (from a 100% water change). Now it takes about 5 days to reach that level. However, my stock level could have changed since last time. So I really can’t say for sure the lower nitrate level is attributable to the denitrator. Sorry. But I think I’ll improve the setup by stocking the base of the canister plus the lowest basket with fine sand. The ideal is to mimic an old UGF where the oxygen level is very low down-under due to accumulation of waste. Thanks for the link; I'll go through the long thread soon. I think the low flow-rate bottles down to an intention to deprive the anaerobic bacterial of oxygen. The idea is to allow aerobic bacterial sufficient time to consume oxygen, depleting oxygen in the process for the anaerobic bacterial to thrive. I don't mean to throw a cold bucket of water to you but I seriously doubt a TT really work unless you can balance the amount of oxygen-rich water (for the aerobic bacterial) and oxygen-free water (for the anaerobic bacteria) within the filtration system. Furthermore, there's something about anaerobic bacterial that I don't quite understand but I should draw your attention to. I read that if they die (when exposed to oxygen), it turns the water toxic, accompanied by very stench rotten eggs odor. Because of that, I’m actually a little anxious to clean my denitrator. Finally, if denitration works as well as the theory it were based upon, filter manufacturers such as Eheim would have jumped on the bandwagon and finally market a filter that requires no water change, ever. But mo established manufacturer with big R&D depts. is doing that. I’m not discouraging you to give it a try, but I suggest reading up more on the whole process of denitration before you subject your fish to it; it could be lethal. For now... I’m playing with my relatively safe green water which not only filters the water but provide nutrients too; I just bet Eheim’s PR dept is not too happy to know about this old fashion filtration. You think that setup is low cost? I think if should fails or does not work to your satisfaction, you’ll find it hard to sell used bio-balls. May I suggest buying a cheap new Atman 3335 ($48 at Y618?) or a used Ehiem and try the denitrating canister method instead? If it doesn’t work, you can easily sell the canister away (or dump your OHF which I think… is a waste of time) with minimal monetary lost. – wink.

06-09-2003, 12:05 AM	#7
square_guy Arofanatic Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 263	hehe, maybe after u go thru the super long thread and give me your thoughts on it? without going into details, the whole idea of the TT is not based on anerobic bat. instead the main emphasis is on abundant supply of O2. i have read abt the "rotten egg" smell associated abt anerobic blah blah in eg undergravel filter, etc etc and tat's the reason i'm shying away from the denitrator canistor thingy. u shd see some lava rocks fountains which serves as TT in some koi ponds. they r cool (but will look very silly on my tank). well the whole thing abt TT is tat there r many documented case of it working very well in reducing nitrate, but there isn't any proper scientific explanation (not tat i can find). well hopefully i can setup something over the weekend and see how it goes. btw, i think the setup cost isn't tat high. bioballs (100 for $9. 300 = $27), some tall plastic containers (<$10), maybe a piece of light diffuser, and free labour (me) :P OHF a waste of time??!!? i dun agree man... i think they r value for money. but tat's another issue another website with info on TT. www.cyberfins.com. happy reading

07-09-2003, 01:02 AM	#9
square_guy Arofanatic Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 263	haha i gotta agree there really isn't any good and proper scientific explanation for the whole thing. i think dr conrad did not mention the thing abt it being tall etc. it was mentioned by anotehr forumer. anyway dr conrad did mentioned in his own column in cyberfins tat he has seen TT working well with 6" height, and he doesn't really know why ppl find that the taller height works better. i have set up a simple TT with 150 bioballs and 9" height. low flow rate. will see how it goes i also just discovered tat my nitrate today is 50mg/L (last water change 80% is last sat). really surprised by the low value as i have expect close to 100mg/l. maybe my flourishing water lectuces are doing their job

08-09-2003, 10:12 AM	#10
MrChoco Guest Posts: n/a	i intend to put some plants to use up a bit of the nitrate. What plants can you guys recommend? i intend to put them into the sump tank. using IOUS. I have 2217 ehiem running also.

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